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"hot spots" in a church

P

pi_r_squared

Sep 3, 2008
123
0
#1
I play bass for our praise team, and need to use my own amp (long story, just leave it at that).

Anyway, playing a combo amp with a single 15" woofer. In the sanctuary, there are places where the bass usually very quiet, like where I stand, about 12 ft in front of the amp, but then there are places 50 ft away where your fillings will be shook loose.

It seems when you're dealing with wavelengths in excess of 20 ft, this may be impossible to avoid completely. Is there some simple way to help the situation a little?

I have a couple of 10" automotive sub-woofers, I thought about building a cabinet that would point them in slightly different directions and try that. Normally I wouldn't think to use automotive stuff, but these are old Nakamichi's, that ought to do a decent job.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
 
#5
ok, I need to clarify, but this might turn the answer into "you're screwed".

I'm not using my amp just for a monitor. It is for the house as well. The house system can't handle to low end. There is a powered sub-woofer/satellite system driven by one channel on the board, but that is used exclusively by the keyboard and drums......don't ask....it just is.

Not sure if this becomes impossible, but I got the definite impression from the responses (thank you, by the way) that it sounded like I was just using my amp as a monitor.
 
#6
Don't worry too much about the 10" subs; the directionality isn't the problem and car audio gear usually works poorly for musical instrument applications.

Stick to the amp you've got and try finding some better locations. Depending on the room, placing it in a corner or very near to a wall can be beneficial or harmful so try both and compare. The more surfaces you're near the more bass boost, but exactly which parts of the note get boosted varies.

Also try getting the amp off the ground, say on some chairs or a crate of some kind, again to see if it helps in the room you play in.

Using your amp for monitor as well as FoH is fine; but positioning is the key. Aim for maximum clarity rather than maximum loudness, and you'll probably get what you want.
 
#7
Seriously.. find something to lift your amp 2-4 inches off the floor.. the fire it downward.

Churches are notorious for this issue.

I spent thousands of bucks and hours to try to solve this.. I always carry a cabinet with down fire.

Think studio sound.. not rock band sound... many surround sound systems fire low end at a wall or directly at the floor.

One of my gigs uses a 1-10 cabinet fired by a 50 watt SS head.. at 1/2 volume I can fill the room (used to bring a 400 watt biamp .. get complaints and not hear myself)

(not my idea.. one of the sound engineers at a well known cabinet mfg).
 
#9
I run into this mutliple times..

IEM does solve the "I can't hear myself" and complaint issues.

From mid house it also helps the sound pressure issues.

YEs the bonkers frequencies need to be RTA'd out --- Assuming the PA has a marginal installation, it often sounds better as the bass amp will not be hitting grama in the wig and will not be subject to walls, floors etc.

Tim
 
#10
MNAirHead said:
I run into this mutliple times..

IEM does solve the "I can't hear myself" and complaint issues.

From mid house it also helps the sound pressure issues.

YEs the bonkers frequencies need to be RTA'd out --- Assuming the PA has a marginal installation, it often sounds better as the bass amp will not be hitting grama in the wig and will not be subject to walls, floors etc.

Tim
Click to expand...

i've done installations in quite a few houses of worship...
a pa is as subject to walls and floors as any amp.
placement can help, but just as often hurt, as sight lines etc. in houses of worship are more important.
the point is the acoustics of the room reacting to volume, pa or bass amp....
pa doesn't really matter though, as the op states no bass goes in the pa.
monitoring also is not mentioned as an issue.
pa placement? common things like spreading pa out for coverage, as opposed to a single point source (stage amp) for lows, for example,
is going to screw up gramma's wig even more.
heavy cuts in an attempt at tuning rooms like this more often have marginal improvements at best, with detrimental results in other areas. it won't fix the actual problem.
my point is, no matter what you use, extreme cases of bad acoustics like the op mentioned (from just a combo bass amp!) are a room issue, much more than gear issue...
identifying and working on this is unfortunately less common than throwing money at iem systems, different amp/ pa setups and choosing to constantly battle eq issues.
it comes down to the reality that most often better results can be gotten from 10k worth of professional acoustical treatment, as opposed to 50k worth of gear....
actually, i'll be dealing with the 50k throw yer money at the problem at st. stevens in d.c. tomorrow, come to think of it...
 
#12
I'll take a shot at getting some approximate dimensions on Sunday. I'm going to have to guess at ceiling height, or measure a few rows of bricks and start counting. Yes, bricks....on the interior....huge, un-interrupted brick walls, that and glass makes up probably 90% of the walls.

Anyway, I'll try to get a rough idea of 3-d dimensions on Sunday. Thanks all.
 
#13
Getting the amp up or using something like this can help.

http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Musician's-Gear-Folding-Tiltback-Amp-Stand?sku=450727

In a space like that, it is usually helpful to find a way to cut the low lows a bit. I play in an oval shaped sanctuary with tile floors and hard walls so I feel you pain. The best I have been able to come up with so far has been to run my Fishman Platinum Pro DI box and use the depth control to roll off to deep lows from everything. I take a DI from there also and then use the low cut button (80 hz high pass) on the house board so only my mids are going through the PA. My amp carries the low end for the whole space.

Good luck. I have been working this for 10 yrs now and this seems to work as well as anything.
 
#14
Only reason I ask dimensions etc..

Churches are notorious for shoving you in a wall.. 1 foot away.. hollow stage/alter.. amp below your head (directly at gramma) etc.

I spent about a year of my life and about 1000 trying to come up with a solution to this..

Was fun =-- got to call sound physists etc.. learned a ton about the difference on "studio" and "rock band" setups.

Tim
 

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