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How about sub-mixing your bass signal?

I thought about getting a small sub-mixer to place in-between my Ampeg Pf-50t and the FOH main mixer in live situations. I could mix both balanced line outs plus the mic'd cabinet to form the sound that I like and then send it to the main mixer to adjust the FOH sound to the room specs etc.

It may not make sense in the way I just described it with my particular amp but I would like to know if anyone uses a sub-mixer for his/her bass signal before going to the main mixer.
 
Well, I thought mixing the three (different sounding) signal sources to my liking and keeping control over it would be a good thing.
I haven't tested it yet so there might be no benefit at all but from what I've heard, many bass players like the combination of a D.I. signal and a mic'd speaker.
 
Well, I thought mixing the three (different sounding) signal sources to my liking and keeping control over it would be a good thing.
I haven't tested it yet so there might be no benefit at all but from what I've heard, many bass players like the combination of a D.I. signal and a mic'd speaker.

I see.

These are my thoughts:

IME, it is sometimes beneficial to send more than one source of bass signal to FOH and mix those so the resulting bass sound works good in the room and sits well in the mix. The person who is present in the audience and hears the band's mix is the person who should keep control over the mix. I, as a bass player, am on the stage so I cannot assess whether something works in the room and in the mix. So I need to rely on the sound tech's judgment. If I decide to use two sources of signal (which I sometimes do), he should be the one making the decision how to mix them or which one to use.

In case you don't trust your sound tech enough to let him decide how to mix the two/three signals, it would be much easier, if you just decide which signal you like the most (pre/post/mic) and send him just one signal...

Just my 2 cents...
 
Well, I thought mixing the three (different sounding) signal sources to my liking and keeping control over it would be a good thing.
I haven't tested it yet so there might be no benefit at all but from what I've heard, many bass players like the combination of a D.I. signal and a mic'd speaker.

On the face of it, and from the individual musician's perspective, it sounds like a great idea to give FOH your finely-crafted tone unicorn in the belief that all FOH needs to do is wiggle the volume fader and all will be good. Unfortunately, the reality is not quite so simple.

The job of FOH is to create a good mix where everyone has a place. Discounting the oft-berated lazy FOH who just puts everything on +3dB and walks away, it takes a lot of skill to create space in the mix for everything, and it's much much more about EQ and dynamics than blending levels. If you are controlling too much from the stage based on what you hear on stage (either from your monitor or, worse still, from your amp) you and FOH will just end up chasing each other's tails. I know there are poor FOH operators out there, but with anyone worth their salt you are better off trusting their judgement and just giving them as full and balanced a signal as possible and not be messing with the levels and EQ as you go. If you have specific needs, such as a particular 'flavour', you should be able to discuss this beforehand so they understand that they will be getting a 'representative' tone, but for the most part, IME it's better to let FOH do it's job.

It is often the case that what sounds great in isolation sounds dreadful in a mix, and the opposite is also true. So you need to trust that whilst the bass alone in the auditorium may sound dreadful, once everyone else is playing it's probably just fine, or at least as good as it can be. The minute you mess with your blender, FOH has to start over. Do this too often and they might just stop bothering.
 
My biggest FOH client is a bass player. We have spent inordinant amounts of time on his FOH tone. He is BL, bassist, and it's his name on the marquee. Luckily, we have the facilities to do this. With him walking back and forth from stage to console, with me walking back and forth...working with the drummer and switching up snares and hi-hat cymbals we finally have a repeatable tone that only takes me a few minutes to tweak to the room. I also work with hundreds of other bass players where I shake their hands, and go get them a mix in 15 minutes. This is by far the more common scenario and I'm very good at it. If I could only have ONE suggestion for all bass players- Keep it simple. Send me one great line, know your stage sound, and let me work. If you are the headliner, and time allows, we can spend some time together back at the board, but chances are good you just have to let my experience and judgement make these decisions. More than likely the only time we will have hands on time together is the final rehearsals before a tour
 
On the face of it, and from the individual musician's perspective, it sounds like a great idea to give FOH your finely-crafted tone unicorn in the belief that all FOH needs to do is wiggle the volume fader and all will be good. Unfortunately, the reality is not quite so simple.

The job of FOH is to create a good mix where everyone has a place. Discounting the oft-berated lazy FOH who just puts everything on +3dB and walks away, it takes a lot of skill to create space in the mix for everything, and it's much much more about EQ and dynamics than blending levels. If you are controlling too much from the stage based on what you hear on stage (either from your monitor or, worse still, from your amp) you and FOH will just end up chasing each other's tails. I know there are poor FOH operators out there, but with anyone worth their salt you are better off trusting their judgement and just giving them as full and balanced a signal as possible and not be messing with the levels and EQ as you go. If you have specific needs, such as a particular 'flavour', you should be able to discuss this beforehand so they understand that they will be getting a 'representative' tone, but for the most part, IME it's better to let FOH do it's job.

It is often the case that what sounds great in isolation sounds dreadful in a mix, and the opposite is also true. So you need to trust that whilst the bass alone in the auditorium may sound dreadful, once everyone else is playing it's probably just fine, or at least as good as it can be. The minute you mess with your blender, FOH has to start over. Do this too often and they might just stop bothering.

This.
It's acutally quite easy. Try and send FOH a signal that will work in most rooms when the EQ on your channel is set flat. This will ensure that the bass will sound okayish when the FOH person is one of those +3dB people.

But let this sink in:
When the person behind the board is an imbecile, your band will sound terrible. You can't hear from stage what's going on down there. All you can do is feed FOH the best quality signals you are capable of.
When the person behind the board is good, it's up to you - play good and you'll sound good - play bad and sound bad.
When the person behind the board is great, it's up to you - play great and you'll sound great - play bad and sound bad.
 
as an FOH guy... this sounds like a complete waste of time... My ears are out front, your's are on stage. what you hear is going to be very different from what I hear particularly when it comes to gaining separation between the bass and the kick. So your magic tone may be something I have to manipulate anyway...

truth is the more experienced the player is the simpler their setups tend to be. I some A level regional acts and the occasional B level national act. Mostly the bass players either accept my Radial or Countryman or they hand me a line from theirs... once in a while we mic and DI and about as often we use the DI from their head. I'm pretty taken with the DI from the Mesa Subway, the Ampeg V4B reissue and Alembic F1X if it isn't thrashed. All would be coming in Pre EQ

barring crazy room resonances, getting a good bass tone simply is not that hard...
 
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I thought about getting a small sub-mixer to place in-between my Ampeg Pf-50t and the FOH main mixer in live situations. I could mix both balanced line outs plus the mic'd cabinet to form the sound that I like and then send it to the main mixer to adjust the FOH sound to the room specs etc.

It may not make sense in the way I just described it with my particular amp but I would like to know if anyone uses a sub-mixer for his/her bass signal before going to the main mixer.


I have done essentially what you are describing, but I consider it a compromise rather than an improvement or advantage. IMHO, you can't tell what it sounds like out in the hall when you are on stage. Let the audio tech do his/her job.

Rather than using an amp, I used an Ashley MX508 rack mixer. At the time I switched between electric bass, upright bass, and electric upright bass. The rack mixer gave me separate gain, EQ, and mute controls for each instrument. Rather than using a DI on each instrument, the audio tech took an XLR from the MX508. I think the main reason he did this was so he didn't have to deal with my instrument changes. It very important to mute an upright bass that is unattended or the strings will start feeding back.

The reason I consider it a compromise is because sound needs to be tailored for its intended use. So the way I EQ and balance my sound on stage may not be optimum for the FOH mix. Also the acoustic environment on stage is different than it is out in the house, and the PA speakers have a different frequency response curve than my amp. From a pure audio perspective, I think it would be better for the audio tech to tailor the EQ of each instrument so that it sounds nice from the audience's perspective.

Often when I do gigs where my amp pushes the room because there is no PA support, someone goes out into the hall and calls EQ and volume changes during sound check. This rarely results in a stage sound that I think is ideal. I have even done gigs, where I ran my bass signal to FOH and allowed the audio tech to control the volume and EQ of my speaker through an Aux send. On that particular gig, I thought my stage volume was bordering on unbearable, but both the audio tech and group leader said it sounded great at FOH.
 
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I thought about getting a small sub-mixer to place in-between my Ampeg Pf-50t and the FOH main mixer in live situations. I could mix both balanced line outs plus the mic'd cabinet to form the sound that I like and then send it to the main mixer to adjust the FOH sound to the room specs etc.

It may not make sense in the way I just described it with my particular amp but I would like to know if anyone uses a sub-mixer for his/her bass signal before going to the main mixer.
Waste of time IMHO
 
If you’re using a lot of effects it’s usually beneficial (IMO) to send the board a clean feed along with an effect feed and let the FOH handle the balance between the two.

Outside of that I’d be more inclined to just send a single feed to the FOH and let them handle the balance plus whatever tweaks are needed for the room.
 
I thought about getting a small sub-mixer to place in-between my Ampeg Pf-50t and the FOH main mixer in live situations. I could mix both balanced line outs plus the mic'd cabinet to form the sound that I like and then send it to the main mixer to adjust the FOH sound to the room specs etc.

It may not make sense in the way I just described it with my particular amp but I would like to know if anyone uses a sub-mixer for his/her bass signal before going to the main mixer.
I think the rest of the posts above kinda summarize it.. Umm no! Don't to that.
I remember running sound years ago for a local [pretty good] club band. They hds a small analog console for FOH and the BL (drummer) wanted ALL his drums in the mix.
They all went into a sub-mix (12-ch console on stage) where he EQ'd them and sent FOH an L/R feed!!
What a freakin's disaster that was!! :rollno:
NO control at FOH except pan and EQ on both channels.. can't change levels of individual drums and a drummer simply cannot mix drums from behind the kit!
I did TWO gigs with them and QUIT!
The BL was surprised, even tho I had told them before the 1st gig that you don't need 11 mics on a kit in a club!! :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
Please take the advice offered in the posts above.. you'll be glad you did!
 
I thought about getting a small sub-mixer to place in-between my Ampeg Pf-50t and the FOH main mixer in live situations. I could mix both balanced line outs plus the mic'd cabinet to form the sound that I like and then send it to the main mixer to adjust the FOH sound to the room specs etc.

It may not make sense in the way I just described it with my particular amp but I would like to know if anyone uses a sub-mixer for his/her bass signal before going to the main mixer.
Just thought - have you tried using a wireless and playing among the audience to find out what you really sound like? If not, I'm afraid you're gonna have to trust your sound engineer.
 
I'm lucky that in my band we have a pro sound tech..He has been doing it for decades and is excellent at it..troubleshooting and mixing..I put 100% faith in his ability to take my dry DI to the board and do as he sees fit with it...that's his job not mine. I have a wireless rig that I used once at a gig and I walked out front to hear the mix and it blew me away how balanced and nice the mix was and how full and nice my bass sounded in FOH..that was a year ago...I haven't been out front since because I don't have too even think about it..I KNOW he has me where I need to be in the mix and its totally his call on how to get it there...