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How "fast" are the mini-cabs?

Bennet Pullen

Bennet Pullen

Aug 31, 2003
250
4
41
Seattle, WA
www.bennetpullen.com
#1
I've been considering downsizing my rig for some time now and I only have one real concern. I currently use an SWR Henry the 8x8 primarily because it is fast. I love the bottom end clarity and tightness that comes with that speed. Since most of the current offerings in lightweight small cabs are using 10s or 12s how do they compare in speed? of all of them (Epifani, EA, Bergs, Aguilar, maybe Accugroove, etc) which has a super tight transient punchy tone?
 
#2
I'm not really qualified to answer this, as I don't generally go for that tight, fast tone you're mentioning. I'm more of a 'mwaaaah' old-school fretless guy.

I just thought I'd throw out the LDS 2x8 and 3x8 cabs, though ... might be just what you're after!

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Liam
 
#4
I use an ampeg SVT-48HE cabinet. It is fast. But it still have some big bottom end. It had rubber surrounds, and plastic cones, so it really is a rugged cab. It's interesting that I have not one paper bass speaker. All mine are either plastic, or aluminum.
 
#5
Just to throw a wrench into the mix, it should be known that whether your driver is 8 inches in diameter or 18, it will move at exactly the same velocity to produce the same tone. Some may question effects of inertia (accelerating the larger cone at the same rate as the smaller cone takes more force). The answer to this as you will see with any driver is a larger magnet and voice coil on the larger driver. This is provided for both heat dissipation and increased motor force.

That quick sound you refer to is most likely due to a relatively high rolloff. Whenever I've heard someone refer to "slow" bass, it's quite often the actual sub-low bass that they are calling slow. When I've heard people describe bass as "tight" or "punchy", it's usually much less bass, more low-mids.

Just keeping that in mind, take a look at Schroeder's cabs. Jorg Schroeder's 410 might suit your purpose and be significantly smaller than the Henry. His "light" cabs use neodymium drivers which shed a lot of weight from already light, compact cabs.
 
#8
BassIan said:
Just to throw a wrench into the mix, it should be known that whether your driver is 8 inches in diameter or 18, it will move at exactly the same velocity to produce the same tone. Some may question effects of inertia (accelerating the larger cone at the same rate as the smaller cone takes more force). The answer to this as you will see with any driver is a larger magnet and voice coil on the larger driver. This is provided for both heat dissipation and increased motor force.

That quick sound you refer to is most likely due to a relatively high rolloff. Whenever I've heard someone refer to "slow" bass, it's quite often the actual sub-low bass that they are calling slow. When I've heard people describe bass as "tight" or "punchy", it's usually much less bass, more low-mids.
Click to expand...
+1
 
#9
BassIan said:
Some may question effects of inertia (accelerating the larger cone at the same rate as the smaller cone takes more force). The answer to this as you will see with any driver is a larger magnet and voice coil on the larger driver. This is provided for both heat dissipation and increased motor force.

That quick sound you refer to is most likely due to a relatively high rolloff. Whenever I've heard someone refer to "slow" bass, it's quite often the actual sub-low bass that they are calling slow. When I've heard people describe bass as "tight" or "punchy", it's usually much less bass, more low-mids.
Click to expand...

I'm not convinced by this. In hi fi speakers (that rarely roll off the highs in the range of human hearing) there are obvious differences in aparent speed between different speaker designs. It manifests itslef in both the tightness of the bass and in the crispness and realness of transient attacks.

The fastest sounding stereo speakers I've heard are electrostatics, horn speakers (like the avante gardes), and the conventional speakers by triangle electroacoustique (who design for speed by using small, very lightweight paper drivers). In all these cases there seems to be a corellation between aparent speed and the moving mass in the driver.
 
#15
paulraphael said:
I'm not convinced by this. In hi fi speakers (that rarely roll off the highs in the range of human hearing) there are obvious differences in aparent speed between different speaker designs. It manifests itslef in both the tightness of the bass and in the crispness and realness of transient attacks.

The fastest sounding stereo speakers I've heard are electrostatics, horn speakers (like the avante gardes), and the conventional speakers by triangle electroacoustique (who design for speed by using small, very lightweight paper drivers). In all these cases there seems to be a corellation between aparent speed and the moving mass in the driver.
Click to expand...

I do not doubt your experience of this phenomenon. There are many possibilities that may be causing your experience, some physical and some psychological. I'll avoid that discussion since that's a pretty nasty can of worms to open.

What I must say is that physics does not support your findings. Two speaker drivers, one with a heavy cone and one with a light cone, are asked to produce a sine wave at 100hz. The cones must move at the same velocity, with the same acceleration, assuming we intend to reach the same sound intensity level. If the cones do not move at the same velocity/acceleration, one or both drivers is introducing distortion, which is relatively easy to quantify with the correct equipment.

As I mentioned in my previous post, there need not be a difference in acceleration between a heavy-coned and a light-coned driver, since the former is likely to have a more powerful motor structure. And since Newton says F = ma, a motor strength increase will allow for the same acceleration of a larger mass.

Please notice I'm being careful to lay out my conditions and logic. It'd be really easy for your argument to be true as well under different assumptions, however I'm choosing ones to demonstrate trends I've seen in real life. Still, the basic concept is that if two cones are moving with different velocities and/or accelerations, they are not producing the same pitch.
 
#16
whacker said:
And don't forget about damping factors of an amp/speaker combination. Lots of tight/loose issues there
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Damping factors are no longer significantly low enough in solid state amplifiers to make a difference to anybody.

Most tube amps have low damping factors (an order of magnitude smaller than an average solid state power amplifier, from my recollection), which may or may not alter the sound. This cannot be proven true or false unless some A/B double-blind testing is done to show that significant damping factor changes perceivably change the sound.
 
#17
+1

At a given frequency, sound pressure is proportional to the product of cone velocity and frontal area. And to re-iterate what you say, it is correct to lump velocity and acceleration together, since these are also proportional at any given frequency.
 
#19
AndrewClaycomb said:
In all of my cab testing, I've come to one conclusion...

Ampeg cabinets sound like mud. In a loud rock band they sound big and full, but when you just demo one by itself... mud
Click to expand...

The mud is what gives bass clarity... what irony. :hmm:

...and back to the old what sounds good soloed (scooped) is often lost in a band mix. Highs and high mids get washed out by a guitar, low bass can get boomy and nondistinct... low mids always cut through the mix.
 

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