How have I missed this comment?

[DMX]

FWIW:

if anybody has an inside track or particular affinity to Epi they may want to contact them and have them post something here.

If I was them I'd want to.

Or at least be aware of the conversation.

I've just emailed them, let's see what they say.

 

[j-raj]

I read the amp posts daily and today I saw this comment. "Epifani states that their cabs don't work well with tube heads" (paraphrase) Amidst all the Markbass/Genz Benz hammering, how could I have missed this info? Sleeping at the wheel? Is this an honest to goodness statement from Epifani? i just flabbergasted.......

Really I have no idea what would make them not be a good match for tube amps. This is the first time I've ever heard of a particular brand or cabinet not being good with tube amps. Maybe Mr Epifani can chime in on this? Maybe the person misunderstood a conversation.

From our FAQ's:
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Q: I have heard that using a tube power amp can damage Epifani drivers - is that true?

A: \"Apparently there was some confusion regarding my generalized statement on the use of tube power amps and speakers. Let me clear this up once and for all.

Basically, a speaker cone can break up in two ways as the wave forms emanate off the speaker - Axially and Conically. As the wave form moves out along the cone of the driver the wave can broken by the subtle twisting of the cone itself. That is referred to as “Conical Break-up mode”. “Axial Break Up mode” happens when the cone stops moving like a piston and begins to flex axially from the voice coil to the top of the cone. Due to the low damping factor of most tube power amplifiers, there is less control over the driver than with most modern solid state or digital amps. Less control means a greater excursion of the driver and more opportunities for the driver to break up either Axially or Conically. The net result of that effect manifests itself in the overall wear and tear of the driver. The lifespan of the driver will be shorter - how much shorter depends on how rigorously the speaker is used.

So what does this mean to a working bass player? Basically if you run any rig within some common sense parameters it will work fine for years. Use and abuse a rig and it will get damaged. We strongly suggest that you experiment with our products and anyone else\'s in pursuit of \"your\" tone. Our cabinets work fine with tube power amps and we have a history of players who love these cabinets and use them in conjunction with their tube power amps.

 

[greenboy]

From our FAQ's:
"Due to the low damping factor of most tube power amplifiers, there is less control over the driver than with most modern solid state or digital amps. Less control means a greater excursion of the driver and more opportunities for the driver to break up either Axially or Conically."

I think this why at least some of us using B strings and lower might like the sound of tube heads for four-string, but don't necessarily feel they work so hot for basses equipped for lower pitches. Strain of drivers aside, the sound coming from the lower pitches just doesn't seem as tight - controlled - regardless of how much low end we might be accustomed to or prefer.

 

[j-raj]

I think this why at least some of us using B strings and lower might like the sound of tube heads for four-string, but don't necessarily feel they work so hot for basses equipped for lower pitches. Strain of drivers aside, the sound coming from the lower pitches just doesn't seem as tight - controlled - regardless of how much low end we might be accustomed to or prefer.

might be.

I personally love tube amps, when I can use them, not all of the applications that I play in can use them. Most of my work is using a 5 string with a low B. So, the versatility of a Tube front end and a SS power section, is what gets the most use on gigs for me.

The SS/SS thing is cool, I like it for jazz/fusion gigs and rehearsals, where I want to hear the clarity of the bass.

 

[greenboy]

So, the versatility of a Tube front end and a SS power section, is what gets the most use on gigs for me.

Yeah, that's my modus operandi usually, as well. Though I sometimes entertain going back to biamping with a tube power stage on top, and a standard SR amp on bottom - with tube or modeling pre.

 

[A9X]

I could imagine them saying their cabs sound better with high end SS amps because, as seamonkey says, that's the type of head they make and obviously they want to make cabs that work well with their own heads, but also they want people to buy their heads to go with their cabs and vise versa.

So they can sell more of their heads to people who buy the cabs.

The thing is, in the e-mail that Jack mentions and that I've also seen, they suggest it could be damaging to their speakers to power them with a valve amp. It seems like either they'd have their reasons for saying that or they're just shooting themselves in the foot (feet?).
I use a Trace V4 with a UL410 and I think the combination sounds great, but it's a bit worrying to have Epifani making these statements. Someone please reassure me!

From a technical POV, I think that's rubbish.
Please publish the full response from them or ask again exactly why, with a tech explanation, they feel this is true.

 

[j-raj]

Hey A9X,

Read post #22.

 

[A9X]

Hey A9X,

Read post #22.

Once a cone goes into axial break up modes then the best thing to do is either back off the input or apply some mechanical damping as the cone is exhibiting flexure through poor design (or abuse) and electrical damping will do little to help it.
The extra excursion comment is fairly specious as axial modes happen higher in frequency where the excursion is limited anyway and will be damped to a much larger extent by the spider and surround as well as the cone material (usually paper), and the air volume inside a sealed box.

The high DR of SS amplifiers is massively reduced by connectors, cables, and any series components present in crossovers to the point where the difference isn't that much.

Besides, it's really worn out a lot of guitar speakers, right?

 

[lbwdog]

DEINITIONS- rumor mill; a place where unsubstantiated rumors are born. ie; Talkbass,etc.

Scenario; a local highschool hallway before first period.

Bassist #1: " Hey dude, did ya hear? Epifani says you can't use their speakers with a tube head.
Bassist #2 " Yeah? Where'd ya hear that?"
#1: "Read it on TB, some dude saw it on their website! Something about damping factor, whatever that is!"
#2: "Wow"

later,at lunch in the cafeteria:
#2: " Dudes, didya hear? Epifani's trying to cut costs so they stopped installing damping factors in their speakers! Their site says it'll ruin the drivers if you use a tube head!"
#3: "Wow!"

later that day;
#3: " Yeah man, Seems that Epifani sold out to Fender, just like SWR, so to cut costs they bought a bunch of cheap speakers without a damping factor and if you hook 'em to a tube head it'll totally destroy the amp! My homeboy emailed 'em about it and they confirmed it!"

later that evening as #4 & #5 sit in #4's bedroom looking at the new Epifani cabinet Mom just bought;
#4: "Yeah, I just can't risk hooking it up to my new SVT, so I guess I'll have to ask her for an Ampeg 8x10 to go with it!"
#5; "Wow!"

 

[billfitzmaurice]

DEINITIONS- rumor mill; a place where unsubstantiated rumors are born. ie; Talkbass,etc.

Scenario; a local highschool hallway before first period.

Bassist #1: " Hey dude, did ya hear? Epifani says you can't use their speakers with a tube head.
Bassist #2 " Yeah? Where'd ya hear that?"
#1: "Read it on TB, some dude saw it on their website! Something about damping factor, whatever that is!"
#2: "Wow"

later,at lunch in the cafeteria:
#2: " Dudes, didya hear? Epifani's trying to cut costs so they stopped installing damping factors in their speakers! Their site says it'll ruin the drivers if you use a tube head!"
#3: "Wow!"

later that day;
#3: " Yeah man, Seems that Epifani sold out to Fender, just like SWR, so to cut costs they bought a bunch of cheap speakers without a damping factor and if you hook 'em to a tube head it'll totally destroy the amp! My homeboy emailed 'em about it and they confirmed it!"

later that evening as #4 & #5 sit in #4's bedroom looking at the new Epifani cabinet Mom just bought;
#4: "Yeah, I just can't risk hooking it up to my new SVT, so I guess I'll have to ask her for an Ampeg 8x10 to go with it!"
#5; "Wow!"

Replies #3 upon hearing of the latest development :"Dude, you can't use a 800 watt 8x10 with a 300 watt SVT, you'll underpower it and blow it up!"

 

[j-raj]

Between Dharma, Eric and Bill... ya gotta love TB!

 

[DMX]

To be fair, the 'rumour' was started by something Epifani stated themselves in an e-mail, not just by random people making things up on internet forums...

 

[seamonkey]

From our FAQ's:
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This is very interesting. Good information to know.

On another note.

I have seen that lower damping factors (higher amp output impedance's) cause the frequency response to resemble the impedance curve of the driver. You can simulate this by simply adding a resistor in series to the amps output. To take it to extremes take a 4 ohm resistor and a 4 ohm speaker. In the middle of the impedance curve where the speaker is 4 ohms and the resistor is 4 ohms they both get the same power. At the lower end of the curve when the speaker impedance rises - let's say to 16 ohms. then the speaker will get more power than the series resistor. Even though the amp could be putting out less power, the results are the user turns the amp up to increase mid-band frequencies and also increases the bass disproportionately. Maybe this happens at high impedance regions that aren't being reproduced. (Like where a ported cabinet unloads)

Coils/crossovers to shunt low unheard frequencies out, would help. Or just signal processing before the amp.