Double Bass How Jazz Quartets Set Up On Stage

[jgbass]

I have been doing this ongoing gig and I have been unsuccessful in getting the guys to understand that a DB player, or at least I, need to be next to the piano, not at the end of the stage next to the drums. There's obviously good reasons for this.

For me, it has been gig hell. Its difficult to hear the piano, even with monitor. The sound guy seems to produce something different soundwise every night volume wise. The pianist also counts off a lot of tunes and sometimes I just don't hear the cue or see it, because of the obstruction of the drums or other noise in the room. It is sabotaging my playing because I am missing some cues. The setup is, from left to right: bass, drums, keyboard, sax, and vocalist out front. I am getting things worked out with the pianist on counting in, but this so-called pro experienced drummer won't budge.

There are best ways to set up a jazz group, right? How do I survive this?

 

[Marc Piane]

My prefered setup is drums, bass, piano across the back and horn/singer out front. In thinking about it most leaders want it that way too. I think having the bass in the middle helps to anchor the group.

 

[anonymous8547j7d7b]

That setup is utter nonsense. It serves no practical purpose whatsoever. The guys you are playing with obviously ain't got a clue what they're doing. Is the stage a reasonable size? Could you turn up early and set up in the middle,without risking damage to your bass while the rest of the band set up? Try this. Ask them to set up "your" way to see if they like it. There's always the possibility that the band has always set up that way and don't know any better because "old Jimbob that was on the gig before never complained..."
If the guys won't come round to "your" way of thinking, you can always consider the gig frequency/fee/musical experience and whether you can live without it.

 

[Sam Sherry]

If possible I try to be on the drummer's hi-hat side.

It is sabotaging my playing because I am missing some cues.

AHA! Shout "WAIT. I can't hear you. What's up??"

I had to do that twice Saturday night when the Frank Sinatra imitator started counting tempos without announcing song titles or keys.

 

[PocketGroove82]

I've heard many players say that the Hi-hat side of the drums is the best possible place for feeling 2&4.
I've also heard that beside the ride is good for connecting.
But really, you just need to be able to hear everyone, since jazz music is communication.

 

[larry]

Good topic. I believe that the first consideration is the acoustics of the room.

If the group is put in a corner as we often are, it's usually a good idea to get the bass (or at least the amp if there is one) out of it. Corners are where low frequencies build up and wierd reflections cause all kinds of problems (muddiness, feedback, wierd notes that jump out more than others). Nothing sounds good in a corner, but if someone has to be there, I prefer it to be the drummer.

The more "live" the room, the more important I think it is to put the bass in the middle, such that the other musicians hear more direct sound from the bass/amp as opposed to reflections from the room. The same can be said about any instrument, but lower frequencies are more problematic. In a dry room, it's less of an issue.

When live recording is going on, I think it's important to have the bass in the middle. Low frequencies spread out and the brain has a difficult time locating the source anyway. Higher frequencies are easier to locate. It messes up the stereo image to have the bass coming from the right or left UNLESS you have really good control over the reflections of the room (like a studio or a really dry venue like the Village Vanguard*).
My humble opinion, anyway.

*Give a listen to B. Evans VV stuff where Scottie is panned off to the side. Still sounds great.

 

[Dave Martin]

Good topic. I believe that the first consideration is the acoustics of the room.

If the group is put in a corner as we often are, it's usually a good idea to get the bass (or at least the amp if there is one) out of it. Corners are where low frequencies build up and wierd reflections cause all kinds of problems (muddiness, feedback, wierd notes that jump out more than others). Nothing sounds good in a corner, but if someone has to be there, I prefer it to be the drummer.

That's interesting; a number of bassists I've recorded (including Dennis Crouch) prefer to set up in a corner.

 

[Paul Warburton]

The definitive set-up for the section is: looking at the stage, piano, bass, and drums. It didn't take too many people too long to figure this out. If you have a drummer that plays so weak that you have to be next to the soc......well, something is wrong.
If you have a grand with the top on the long stick, the bass goes in the piano curve.

 

[Paul Warburton]

That's interesting; a number of bassists I've recorded (including Dennis Crouch) prefer to set up in a corner.

You don't find many corners in most concert venues.

 

[Tbeers]

A grand piano is even shaped just right to have a bassist standing next to it! There are some situations where you can't get the right arrangement due to logistical problems. But on an adequately sized stage, there's no reason to put the bassist all the way on the fringes. Bass provides the link between time and harmony – place it accordingly between drums and piano.

 

[jgbass]

Lots of good info here. Heard this gig is ending so I am just going to go with gig hell one more time. I did try arriving earlier, but they were still insistent the drummer be in the middle. He claims he cannot see the pianist with me in the middle (this is a narrow stage). The drummer is not weak at all.

I've heard players have their preferences, although I like the ride cymbal side. But, if the standard is piano, bass, drum, looking at the stage, then its the ride cymbal. That makes the most sense to me.

And, Larry, you mentioned a "dry" room. I am assuming you mean something with flat acoustics. My GK MB200 direct outs have both a wet and dry input, and neither I nor anyone else ever understood what that meant, but I think you began to answer another good question.

 

[Paul Warburton]

Lots of good info here. Heard this gig is ending so I am just going to go with gig hell one more time. I did try arriving earlier, but they were still insistent the drummer be in the middle. He claims he cannot see the pianist with me in the middle

What? If the piano player does that much conducting tell him to stand up and do it.
Tell him you got this from a 65 year old bass player.

 

[larry]

And, Larry, you mentioned a "dry" room. I am assuming you mean something with flat acoustics. My GK MB200 direct outs have both a wet and dry input, and neither I nor anyone else ever understood what that meant, but I think you began to answer another good question.

By "dry", I mean very little reverb or reflections, which would help "flaten" the room, with respect to frequency response (a good thing). Think of playing in a subway tunnel vs playing in a carpet store. The carpet store is dry. Reflections cause an uneven response where some pitches will be too loud and others too soft*.

On an amp, dry is without running through any effects (like reverb). "Wet" means the signal has passed through some additional effects. I don't have a GK, but the wet input is probably also known as the "effects return" (coming back in from other gear like reverb, compression, etc.). Not sure why there would be a "dry" input. Are you sure it's not the "effects send" (in other words, it's an output going to the effects and not an input)?

*Edit: Reflections bouncing between parallel surfaces and building up in corners are the worst offenders. If a room has a lot of non-parallel surfaces it can create pleasant ambiance without negatively affecting the "flatness" of the room. A room can be too dry, you need some reflections or the sound will be dull (not enough high frequency content).

 

[Dave Martin]

You don't find many corners in most concert venues.

You are correct, sir. A nightclub with a corner stage, however (or in my case, a recording studio) does allow for that sort of thing...

 

[larry]

You are correct, sir. A nightclub with a corner stage, however (or in my case, a recording studio) does allow for that sort of thing...

How do you typically set up a recording? Just a stereo pair, spot mics, does bass go D.I.? Do you prefer to to record someone in a corner?

Sometimes, I'll prefer the corner just so I have a good place to put my bass on breaks - but that's a choice to keep my bass safe over the sound quality.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

The definitive set-up for the section is: looking at the stage, piano, bass, and drums.

I'm preparing the lighting design for the main stage at the Vancouver Jazzfest next week and looking through the artist stage plots out of the 16 acts playing 14 of them set up as Paul describes. Bebel Gilberto and The Blind Boys of Alabama are the exceptions and neither can be considered a "jazz group". It's mostly a function of the open piano lid facing out into the house and sight lines between musicians and then what people are used to because of those things.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

The things I don't like about setting up in the piano curve are
1. I have to turn around to look at the piano player
2. it puts me out in front so the piano player can have a hard time hearing me in the same "plane"
3. I can hear more piano than I really want to, sometimes

I been liking more and more kind of a modified Oscar Petersen trio set up (let's see if this translates) - instead of the piano being laid out straight across the stage with the piano lid being opened directly out to the audience, angle the piano by pushing the end that you don't sit at so that it is pointing out at the audience by about a 45 degree angle like \, only more so. The pianist is then sitting in a slightly profile, slightly facing view to the audience, kind of stage right. The bassist then sets up to center stage of the pianist and stands behind the plane of the piano, kind of
.
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And the drummer sets up stage left in the same plane as the piano. You set up close enough to have a conversation, they both get to hear me, I hear as much of them as I need to. It's worked out pretty good when I can do it...

hmm, the layout of my "graphics" isn't really working out

 

[jgbass]

On an amp, dry is without running through any effects (like reverb). "Wet" means the signal has passed through some additional effects. I don't have a GK, but the wet input is probably also known as the "effects return" (coming back in from other gear like reverb, compression, etc.). Not sure why there would be a "dry" input. Are you sure it's not the "effects send" (in other words, it's an output going to the effects and not an input)?

Larry, this is an old GK, but, no, just as I mentioned, there are two mic cable inputs they say Direct Out, wet and dry, and two 1/4" inputs to effects sent and return.

Thanks for the info. Got it!

And, I am getting ready to talk with the bandleader today, and, at least, I can educate him about setups from this info. Might not change anything for the gig, but, for future reference.

 

[Mark Perna]

That's interesting; a number of bassists I've recorded (including Dennis Crouch) prefer to set up in a corner.

I'm quite sure that this was in reference to where the amp was located and not the player. Since low frequencies are less directional than mid or high frequencies, the lows rolling out of the amp are going to reflect off of the walls and recombine slightly out of phase with the direct sound making the bottom sound boomy and indistinct. Move the amp a foot or two from the wall and the problem disappears because the power of the reflections decrease. The AI amp with it's down facing speaker is less affected by this effect but it is still noticeable.

There isn't enough power in the reflections of an unamplified bass to have the same negative effect at the mic position in the studio.

And in answer to the original question:

The best setup is the traditional one with the bass in the middle and the piano and drums on either side.

 

[Marc Piane]

As a note...

I used to be like Sam and prefered being on the hihat side of the drummer. I've changed my thinking. I like to be on the ride side. Lots of guys that I play with don't always do a 2&4 on the hat. I prefer drummers that drive time with the ride and bass drum. I feel like I have a better mesh with a drummer if I am locking with his ride.