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How many watts/cabinets do i need to gig with??

#23
ok this is driving me nuts.. I can't figure out which head will suit me! I've read WAY too much about "underpowering" "tube vs. solid state amps", "pre->power amp combos" etc etc... I've tangled my brain :bawl:

can you guys simply suggest a well matched head for the following 2 Avatar cabs:

b210NEO (600w's) 8 or 4 ohm
B212 (1000w's) 8 or 4 ohm

(I don't know what the best ohm rating to get is)

I want to be able to run the 210 on its own at rehearsals and run both comfortably at gigs ... please just throw a few suggestions at me :help: :help: :help:
 
#24
remo said:
ok this is driving me nuts.. I can't figure out which head will suit me! I've read WAY too much about "underpowering" "tube vs. solid state amps", "pre->power amp combos" etc etc... I've tangled my brain :bawl:

can you guys simply suggest a well matched head for the following 2 Avatar cabs:

b210NEO (600w's) 8 or 4 ohm
B212 (1000w's) 8 or 4 ohm

(I don't know what the best ohm rating to get is)

I want to be able to run the 210 on its own at rehearsals and run both comfortably at gigs ... please just throw a few suggestions at me :help: :help: :help:
Click to expand...
1st off, you cant underpower a cab, just be underpowered for your situation. going with 4 ohm or 8 ohm cabinets depends upon what head you end up with.

if you go with a mono head that is only stable to 4 ohms then you'll have to get 8 ohm cabinets.

using a mono head that is 2 ohms stable will allow you to use 2 4 ohm cabinets for full power, and will giev you close to full power into one 4 ohm cab, as the jump in wattage from 4 ohms to 2 ohms wont be huge.

if you go with a stereo head that is stable to 4 ohms per side (or a poweramp that is stable to 4 ohms per side) you have a bit of dilemma. going with 4 ohm cabinets will allow you to use all the wattage of the head when using both cabinets. however, if you just use one cabinet you'll have to just use one side. if you go with 8 ohm cabinets in this scenario, you won't get full power when using two cabinets, but you'll be able to bridge the amp into one of the 8 ohm cabinets and use the full power of the amp. (stereo amps thatare 4 ohms stable per side can only be bridged into an 8 ohm load or greater).

using an stereo head of poweramp that is 2 ohms stable per side and 4 ohm cabinets will allow you to run bridge mono into one of the cabinets for full power, and running stereo into two 4 ohm cabs will give you close to full power as more than likley there won't be a huge wattage increase from 4 ohms to 2 ohms per side. finally, using a stereo amp that is 2 ohms stable per side with two 8 ohm cabs gives you the option of running stereo at less than full power, or daisy chaining the cabs together for a 4 ohm load and bridging the amp into them for full power.

that all assumes solid state heads. going with a all tube head is different. some will let you select between an 8 ohm load or a 4 ohm load and will deliver full power into each. in that case you want two 8 ohm cabinets as you'll be able to run full power into one or both of them. some allow you to select between 4 and 2 ohms. in that case you want two 4 ohm cabinets, as running above the selected impedance in a tube amp isnt good for it (the opposite of a solid state amp). if you use a tube amp that is selectable from 8, 4, and 2 ohms than you can use either 8 or 4 ohm cabinets.

whew...........now, dont you feel less confused??? :p

ok, take a deep breath. whats your budget? and what types of gigs will you be playing? what style of music? I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and guess that you are on a budget seeign as you're considering avatar cabinets. (nothing against avatar, they get high praise, but they are popular for being good inexpensive cabs). In general 4 ohm stabel mono heads are cheaper than 2 ohm stable ones. they're also cheaper than stereo amps or preamp poweramp setups. and are definitely cheaper than tube amps. Next cheapest option is an inexpensive preamp like a b-max or rbi with a qsc 1400 poweramp (i forget the qsc model #, but it's not plx). of course, the used market offers you a lot of flexibility in terms of heads.

my (personal and subjective) picks would be to get 8 ohm cabinets. that way if you ever decide to get a different head you wont have to worry if it is 2 ohms stable or not. In the 1K range i would seriously consider an eden wt-550, thunderfunk, or genz benz 600. if you can find a used trace smx head (250, 300, or higher) they are really LOUD.
 
#26
I'm currently playing through a YBA200 and a Yorkville 410 at 8ohms. Playing with gain at 4 or 5 and main at 5 or 6 is usually sufficient without PA support, but I prefer using the PA.

Like I said, it's sufficient. But, usually, when we play a bigger show, I borrow an ampeg fridge and play out of that. Ideal volume.

All that said, the Traynor YBA200 has yet to fail me in terms of volume. I think that its 200 watts translates to 400 watts in many other amps. But that's just an observation.
 
#27
Head-splitting volume from guitar players is a problem that we are all familiar with. I discovered something by listening to some live performance playback tapes that is even worse. They weren't recorded directly from the mixer board, but on a reel to reel rig set up at the back of the venue. What I heard was the miced bass drum coming through the PA and overpowering and muddying up my bass sound. Ever since discovering this I always carry a small pair of dykes (wire cutters) in my gig bag. During the first break I cut the cord from the bass drum microphone. It has improved the sound of my bass tremendously and it's a lot easier than trying to reason with an ornery soundman. :D
 
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#28
I have to agree with a number of people on this post about the topic of subjectivity. After all isn't it actually decibels that we are going after - not watts?

If my guitarist plays at 125 db through his Marshall halfstack with 300W solid state, then for me at least 1200W through 1.5 to 3X the number of speakers that the guitarist has should be sufficient.

A really easy way to determine if you have enough watts? Go to your practice and tell your guitarist to turn it up as loud as he can during his loudest solo. Use a radio shack db meter. Is it 115 db?, 125? 138db? Good. Then go try out the rig you want and bring your db meter. Do you reach at least as loud as the guitarist? Good your done. Easy.

My rig - QSC PLX 3402 with Ampeg PR410 (specially modified to handle 2000 W RMS).

Can you hear me now?
 
#29
i just use my acugroove tri210L and my eden wt-600

personally, if u are going to be playing super loud, there WILL be a pa, so then just turn ur onstage volume down a bit and take advantage of the PA
no sense beating the crap outta ur rig

i dont think i would ever go bigger, unless i made lots of cash

then i would get like a wall of el whappos, some sweet power amps and some bitchin pre-amps
 
#30
Now I know what the problem is. In a real stupid move to save a couple of hundred dollars I went with the PLX3002. I should have gone with the PLX3402. Next time it will be the RMX5050, I don't care if it weighs 80 lbs. :)
 
#34
When I bought my PLX 3402 I thought dude I will never use all this power. 1200W @ 4ohms stereo or 3400W 4ohms bridged. That's a lot of juice!

Right now I'm admittedly using only half of it's potential by running my modified Ampeg PR410 (rated to 2000W RMS). However, I'm contemplating adding a Schroeder 21012 that will get me up to uber loud.

Now I will be the first person to admit that I really don't need all that power. However, I've also played with some loud drummers (and a loud guitarist 300W solid state) that just don't want to turn down. I like being able to drown them out if they get too out of control. :)
 
#36
Unreal.

Maybe if you threw a sticky up there about what speaker sensitivity is, you wouldn't have to answer this question every day. I've seen exactly one reference to it in this thread, and one reference to actual SPL. Freakin silly.

Sorry if I'm a bit bent, but watts don't mean a thing without considering the whole picture. Can a 200HP tractor go faster than a 100HP street bike?
 
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#37
Ben Clarke said:
Unreal.

Maybe if you threw a sticky up there about what speaker sensitivity is, you wouldn't have to answer this question every day. I've seen exactly one reference to it in this thread, and one reference to actual SPL. Freakin silly.

Sorry if I'm a bit bent, but watts don't mean a thing without considering the whole picture. Can a 200HP tractor go faster than a 100HP street bike?
Click to expand...
With the right gearing, tires, and weight reduction the 200HP tractor should go faster. Just like the amp with the most watts should be louder than the amp with less watts. But I guess not all things are created equally. I still dont understand why a tube amp is so much louder.
 
#38
DeadRBassistNJ said:
With the right gearing and weight reduction the 200HP tractor should go faster. Just like the amp with the most watts should be louder than the amp with less watts. I still don't understand why tubes are so loud though....
Click to expand...
I think the reason tubes are louder is that they can be driven much further than solid state transistors. Basically, when you get to 100 watts of solid state, the sound distorts in a bad way and basically can't go any louder. Once you drive your tube amp to 100 watts, the sound just starts to get good, and progressively gets more distorted and you crank it up. Only difference is, this drive sounds good, allowing you to effectively push it to the equivalent of 200-300 watts solid state.
 
#39
It has been said, but here it is:
Tubes squash, Solid State clips...The name of the game is headroom, unless you can afford to haul around Class A stuff..I have pushed many small cabinets to the point of them sounding less than clean and been o.k...no blown drivers!!!Here is what has been said: Underpowering a speaker is as bad as overpowering a speaker!!If the speaker is quality underpowering is worse!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#40
DeadRBassistNJ said:
With the right gearing, tires, and weight reduction the 200HP tractor should go faster. Just like the amp with the most watts should be louder than the amp with less watts. But I guess not all things are created equally. I still dont understand why a tube amp is so much louder.
Click to expand...

Exactly. With the right gearing and tires. Set up like a typical tractor, the bike'll smoke the tractor. Why ignore a major spec like speaker sensitivity when considering a bass rig?
 
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