How much pitch difference is acceptable on fretless bass?

[Oleg BassPlayer]

Hi everybody!
Not a long time ago I got a fretless bass and have been trying to improve my playing with it. To test myself, I often use tuner: I can just play random notes and check whether they are correct or, say, play a tune and then suddenly stop on a note and check it.

The thing is that even with a tuner it's so difficult to catch the right tone so that the tuner lights green. And without a tuner, if I play very slowly and listen very-very carefully trying to imagine the note before playing it, I notice that I can't seem to play precisely. The things get even more complicated as I get higher (in terms of pitch) on the neck: a millimeter may not make much difference on the first "fret", but on the 20th even such slight error is unforgiving.

So the question is: how much pitch difference is acceptable on fretless in terms of cents? To what extent should I train myself before taking the fretless bass to a rehearsal without fear of being ashamed of my bad intonation?

 

[Killed_by_Death]

It depends on how pitch perfect your bandmates are. I'm usually shocked at how pitch perfect others are in comparison to me. Just the other day someone was playing my BTB & right away said "The intonation on your E string is off!".
Later I checked & it was just barely sharp on the 12th fret, and I'd never noticed.

 

[Mushroo]

Question: have you run any bass lines by famous players through your tuner, to see how accurate the pro musicians are? That would give you a base line of what is possible with years of practice.

Generally I think +/- 10 cents is considered "in tune."

 

[lz4005]

So the question is: how much pitch difference is acceptable on fretless in terms of cents?

It is literally different for every note of every song. Some have to be dead on, others can be significantly off and it won't matter.

To what extent should I train myself before taking the fretless bass to a rehearsal without fear of being ashamed of my bad intonation?

I play a lot of fretless, and frankly the way you're going at it is making it much more difficult than it needs to be.
Absolute pitch doesn't matter. Relative pitch matters.
In other words, you need to be able to match the pitch you hear someone else playing to be in tune with them, whether that's perfectly in tune with a tuner or not.

The best way to improve your intonation is to play along with a reference, whether that's a sustained chord on a keyboard, or a recording, or another person.
Listen and make it sound right. Don't look at a tuner during.
If you have the gear to do so, record it and listen back to see how well you did.
Doing that will get you up to speed much faster.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

I hope you have a lined fretless. If so the line is where your put your finger. If not look to the side dots. Good luck with side dots.

How much is too much? If the guitar guy, or vocalist's shoulders hunch up, you know you've moved out of tune.

Really, how much out, if no one is giving you fish eyes, you are fine in my book.

Again when is it too much? I stopped playing my no line fretless in public a year or so ago. My ear is tin and I kept drifting out. If your ear is not telling you that you are out, time to move on to something else. With a fretless it's up to you to slide into tune - if you go out.

IMO the fretless is not for all of us.

 

[bholder]

The best way to improve your intonation is to play along with a reference, whether that's a sustained chord on a keyboard, or a recording, or another person.

Yeah, having a reference of some sort, even just for the key root (if you know your intervals by ear) - I find in practice noodling that playing riffs up the neck against an open string helps my intonation. Helps improve muscle memory and improves intonation even when an open string wouldn't fit into the song.

Listen and make it sound right.

This. Is. The. Key.

 

[lz4005]

I hope you have a lined fretless. If so the line is where your put your finger. If not look to the side dots. Good luck with side dots.
How much is too much? If the guitar guy, or vocalist's shoulders hunch up, you know you've moved out of tune.

No, no and no.

You put your finger where it sounds right, whether that's on the line or not.

The side dots tell you where you are on the neck, not where in tune is.

If you have to wait for other people's reaction to know if you're in tune or not you shouldn't be playing music. You have to be able to hear if you're in or out and instantly compensate.

 

[dhbailey52]

I'll second the recommendations to play along with a reference, whether it's a sound put out by a tuner or a sustained chord on a keyboard (organ tone, sustain pedal down will let that chord sound forever) or one of the accompaniment CDs from Jamey Aebersold. Playing with other instruments is the best way to learn to play in tune. Play in tune with what you hear, not what you see on the tuner. Having said that, using a tuner to help you find where you have major problems isn't a bad thing. I have a lined fretless bass and I find that it's easy to put my fingers in the right spot on the E and A strings since they're near the top of the neck when I'm playing, but for the D and G strings, the visual angle sometimes fools me and using a tuner helps me see what the correct position should look like from my vantage point playing the instrument. However, playing along with recordings helps me fine-tune (if you'll pardon the pun) those positions.

 

[LeeNunn]

I completely agree with the comments about using your ears and some kind of audio reference. Visual references on your fingerboard are more for shifting positions. A drone pitch can work. iReal Pro works. What helped me most was sightreadingfactory.com. Sight reading forces you to look at the notation rather than your fingerboard. Hearing your bass against the audio output makes easy to identify intonation problems. Start very slowly. Listen to the pulses that indicate pitch differences. Slower is closer. When you've nailed the exercise, play an octave higher. The key is learning to make micro adjustments on the fly. You'll never be always perfect, but the moments when you are are pure ecstasy.

 

[eJake]

I think all the info here is great. I also wonder why folks want to play fretless so bad. I mean I get it, I play my buddies all the time and it's so much more vocal then a fretted bass. My problem is that it takes a good ear and a different type of focus to know if you're intonation is bad. You know what will train you to play the note in tune all the time? A fretted bass!!!

I can illustrate my point with a short personal story. When I first started college I was in a recording session. I had forgotten my bass at the house that day and was using a friend's fretless. After we played back the first takes I told the band that I was going home to get my bass. Most of my notes were ok but some were not. I have a good ear but I was unfamiliar with having to focus on each note I played for intonation. I guess my point is, if we're not soloing a bunch and taking advantage of how lyrical a fretless is, why are we making life so much more difficult?

 

[maturanesa]

A fretted bass and an e-tuner are tempered. That means they are not perfectly in tune for all the keys.
So at the end, your fretless bass is capable of being more in tune than the tuner or a fretted bass.
It has no sense to be worried about reaching the "green light" because the green light is not perfect.

 

[joebar]

Your ear is your guide.
Playing notes against open strings is a good way to practise your intonation as well.
The neck is more forgiving down low than it is up the neck.

 

[mmon77]

Play along with recorded tunes and you should be able to tell instantly if you're in tune or not. If you can't tell, then probably fretless will never work for you. Recording what you're playing works even better for practice. You can listen afterwards with the same reference and see how you did.

FWIW I find that the less I concentrate on playing in tune, the better I am at it. Getting too hung up on it makes it harder for your fingers to just land where they already know they should.

 

[mrcbass]

Hi everybody!
Not a long time ago I got a fretless bass and have been trying to improve my playing with it. To test myself, I often use tuner: I can just play random notes and check whether they are correct or, say, play a tune and then suddenly stop on a note and check it.

The thing is that even with a tuner it's so difficult to catch the right tone so that the tuner lights green. And without a tuner, if I play very slowly and listen very-very carefully trying to imagine the note before playing it, I notice that I can't seem to play precisely. The things get even more complicated as I get higher (in terms of pitch) on the neck: a millimeter may not make much difference on the first "fret", but on the 20th even such slight error is unforgiving.

So the question is: how much pitch difference is acceptable on fretless in terms of cents? To what extent should I train myself before taking the fretless bass to a rehearsal without fear of being ashamed of my bad intonation?

I have to agree with everyone telling you to ditch the tuner (for this purpose) and use your ear. And lz4005's comment about ignoring the lines is strong as well - they are a general reference and you should be playing to your ear. I kind of knew this intuitively with my lined FLs, but it became transparent when I picked up my unlined acoustic FL - no lines to look at so I had to really rely on my ear. And yes, it is much more "touchy" above the 9th fret - really have to focus.

That's one of the great benefits of fretless - you can make some subtle changes in a position to attain better pitch for a given note - with a fret - it is what it's tuned to.

 

[SAlcott]

Practice scales using a drone note on the fifth of the scale you're working on.

 

[Inara]

A fretted bass and an e-tuner are tempered. That means they are not perfectly in tune for all the keys.
So at the end, your fretless bass is capable of being more in tune than the tuner or a fretted bass.
It has no sense to be worried about reaching the "green light" because the green light is not perfect.

This x 1000. Fretted instruments are not perfectly in tune - they are compromises, with an equal temperament system that, compared to Just intonation, basically makes them equally out of tune in all keys, while trying to minimize how out of tune they are. A note, such as F#, is not an absolute value - it depends on context. F# as the root of F# minor is not the same absolute pitch as F# when it is the third of D major. Lines on a lined fretless are thus really just good guidelines, not things to be rigidly adhered to. Your ear has to guide you. And of course, when you are playing fretless along with equally-tempered instruments such as guitars and pianos, you have to make compromises sometimes, and your ear has to guide you there as well.

Just intonation - Wikipedia

 

[Ant Illington]

Practice scales using a drone note on the fifth of the scale you're working on.

I'm always interested in practice ideas new to me... Why drone the fifth and is there a benefit in using that for fretted bass practice?

 

[longfinger]

Hi everybody!
Not a long time ago I got a fretless bass and have been trying to improve my playing with it. To test myself, I often use tuner: I can just play random notes and check whether they are correct or, say, play a tune and then suddenly stop on a note and check it.

The thing is that even with a tuner it's so difficult to catch the right tone so that the tuner lights green. And without a tuner, if I play very slowly and listen very-very carefully trying to imagine the note before playing it, I notice that I can't seem to play precisely. The things get even more complicated as I get higher (in terms of pitch) on the neck: a millimeter may not make much difference on the first "fret", but on the 20th even such slight error is unforgiving.

So the question is: how much pitch difference is acceptable on fretless in terms of cents? To what extent should I train myself before taking the fretless bass to a rehearsal without fear of being ashamed of my bad intonation?

Before you start looking for ways out, let's look for ways in to improve intonation. The first big change in playing fretless over frets is that your fingers stop the note at the location your fingers are, instead of your fingers applying the pressure and the frets stop the note at a very calculated distance. What this means is that the finger positions we use for frets won't always work for fretless. You have to hear yourself to make sure you're in tune. If it sounds in tune, it is in tune. For mechanics, 1-2-3-4 works even less in a fretless bass than on a fretted bass. 1-2-4 and position changes will sound better, even doing simple major scales.

Perhaps get the Simandl New Method for double bass and work through those fingers on the fretless bass guitar?
You have to re-learn how to play your major scales and intervals, basic arpeggios and lines. All the while aurally checking for intonation along the way. Programs like Band in a Box, or iReal Pro can help you make backup tracks to practice with.

Sounding in tune is a moving target, as your ears get better you'll become more strict about what's in tune or not.

Likely bring the fretless to band rehearsal just before you feel ready to do so. Don't say anything about fretless, just play. If no-one mentions anything about tuning at the end of the rehearsal... take it as a good sign.

 

[40Hz]

I'm going to put my tuppence on the same square as @lz4005 and @Inara. The relative pitch is far more essential and musical than the exact frequency on a tuner. And although the very occasional use of a tuner to check things is sometimes beneficial when you're trying to remedy a repeating error you're having trouble hearing, your ear training and listening skills are far more essential when it comes to fretless electric bass. That and playing fretless with backup tracks and real musicians as often as you can manage.

There are also some good bits of software that you can use to help you with pitch identification and ear training. You might want to google for "ear training apps" and see if something looks good to you. You shouldn't need to spend a lot of money or buy a whole course like that "perfect pitch" thing you'll see everywhere. A simple app with a decent range of exercises is more than sufficient.

FWIW, the single best thing I ever did for ear training was singing (Tenor2) for three years in my college's chorale. The second tenors tend to get the more unusual harmonies and filler notes in choral works. Especially in modern choral music.

Being able to accurately and confidently come in on the 7th or 9th of a chord after 16 measures of rests (while everyone else is singing the root, third, fifth and octave) goes a long way towards teaching you to hear more than just the basic three intervals.

If you're not singing, try singing as you play. If you "can't sing"…try learning to.

 

[Inara]

FWIW, the single best thing I ever did for ear training was singing (Tenor2) for three years in my college's chorale. The second tenors tend to get the more unusual harmonies and filler notes in choral works. Especially in modern choral music.

Being able to accurately and confidently come in on the 7th or 9th of a chord after 16 measures of rests (while everyone else is singing the root, third, fifth and octave) goes a long way towards teaching you to hear more than just the basic three intervals.

If you're not singing, try singing as you play. If you "can't sing"…try learning to.

This is perfect. I've been a singer my whole life, and it certainly is the best thing for one's ear ... no mechanical things like frets or piano keys to help - pitch has to come to you via your ears and your brain's processing power, passed on to manipulate vocal cords you can't see. This background informs my fretless playing to no end.