How real is the 4x10 dispersion issue?

[c3powil]

SO, after posting a thread on bass presence and punch, I decided what I needed was big speaker area in a single cab. That brought me to pick up a Mesa Boogie Diesel 4x10 cab from my local CL. I got a good deal on it from a fellow TB member.

Of course the first thing I went and did was to ruin it by reading the excellent literature from Barefaced on their website. Thanks to Jim Carr for that. It opened my eyes to so much more about the speaker world.

Now I'm afraid that my 4x10 wont cut it in a live setting either. Of course it sounds monstrous when I'm sitting there directly in front of it, or in a small room, such as band practice, but what about the poor dispersion? How do I know that my sound isn't crapping out everywhere but directly in front of my cab? Yea, I can go out in the room and stand in different places and have the band play something and have someone pluck some notes on the bass... but that will hardly give me an idea of how I sound at FULL gig volume in EVERY venue with ME playing.

Whats more is that, now that I've read all of this, it makes sense. I've seen so many bands play with bassists that just sound muddy and overly subby even though they have a quality looking rig behind them. I'm sure I've seen bass players with 4x10 and 8x10 cabs that had an excellent sound, but maybe I was just standing in the right part of the room?

So I'm leaving it up to you more experienced TBers to either confirm or deny my paranoia. How real is it?

 

[Downunderwonder]

Before I knew a thing about dispersion I would gravitate to directly in front of 4x10 cabs at other guys' gigs. I knew it was because I liked to hear the bass clearly. Now I know why that happens.

 

[azfatboy]

I think I need to go read that stuff on the barefaced page... I am really close to pulling the trigger on a 410 as well...

 

[c3powil]

I think I need to go read that stuff on the barefaced page... I am really close to pulling the trigger on a 410 as well...

It's some pretty in depth stuff, from a layman's POV, but entirely worth it.

To put it in a nutshell: The bigger a driver is, the worse the dispersion, the more it will "beam" mid and high frequencies straight forward instead of spreading them out all around the room. The optimal dispersion comes from a single small driver, because if you place two or more drivers side by side, they will act like one big driver. So a 4x10 cab has the dispersion of a ~20 inch driver both horizontally, because they are side by side, and vertically, because the drivers are also stacked.

This is impossible to tell when you're up close, but apparently it is quite noticeable the further back and to the side you get from the cab. The more you move away, the less mids and highs you get, until only muddy sub bass is left.

I've searched this topic and found threads where people are initially satisfied with their 4x10 cabs, but when they move around the room they find that the sound gets crappy really quickly.

 

[JimmyM]

It's true, and I do try to maximize dispersion when possible, but I've found it to be not all that important to my thing. Most of the time I'm going through PA, and even when I'm not, I walk around the room when I use my 410he or 810e and I'm perfectly happy with the sound everywhere.

 

[c3powil]

I had a feeling that It wasn't quite the bombshell that I thought it was.

I also had a thought. This would be more... strange... but worth it for me if it worked. Is it possible that tilting the 4x10 on one corner would increase the dispersion? Considering that two of the drivers would be still be side by side, it may not completely get rid of it, but the top and bottom driver would be free, correct?

 

[JimmyM]

I had a feeling that It wasn't quite the bombshell that I thought it was.

I also had a thought. This would be more... strange... but worth it for me if it worked. Is it possible that tilting the 4x10 on one corner would increase the dispersion? Considering that two of the drivers would be still be side by side, it may not completely get rid of it, but the top and bottom driver would be free, correct?

Nah, doesn't quite work that way. Might be a slight improvement, but you've still got the middle two drivers acting against it.

 

[One Drop]

Between the form factor and dispersion issues I tend to avoid them.

 

[brbadg]

If dispersion is what you want,then you'll need more than one cab.What size rooms are we talking about?
A 4 X 10 is more than enough for
a 200 capacity bar. Personally,I like their punch.If you want something looser,then you need a 15".

 

[Tim1]

I have owned several high quality 410s including swr, mesa, ampeg....I recently acquired one of the first Barefaced Four 10s. What they say on the site about dispersion does seem to be true in practice. My bandmates noticed immediately that the bass sound was more even around the practice room. I think Barefaced only put the highs through the two speakers on one side. Mind you, no one complained before and at gigs we normally put some bass through foh.

 

[kringle77]

It is a very real thing when you don't normally go through the pa. The tough part is getting the same, familiar tone and feel of a good 4x10 out of a cab that has great dispersion. Of you always go through the pa, don't worry about it. When I use foh, I actually took off all the lows in the pa and just use it for some clarity in a crowd.

 

[chris_b]

Now I'm afraid that my 4x10 wont cut it in a live setting

A Mesa cab "not cutting it?!" You jest.

You've got the cab. Gig it and tell us.

 

[c3powil]

See, I wouldn't worry about it if I used a PA, but I don't. Dispersion is a big deal for me because having a tight and defined bass sound is crucial for my band, and we only ever get FOH for vocals and sometimes drums.

A Mesa cab "not cutting it?!" You jest.

You've got the cab. Gig it and tell us.

Thats the thing. I might be perfectly happy standing there right in front of or next to my cab, but what will the crowd hear?

 

[chris_b]

Thats the thing. I might be perfectly happy standing there right in front of or next to my cab, but what will the crowd hear?

Over the last 60 years the world of popular music has developed and existed using 412 and 410 cabs. How did that happen if they sound so bad?

The answer is they don't. Finding another cab that sounds better does not mean your cab sounds bad.

Get someone whose opinion you trust to walk around when you're playing and they can let you know.

 

[Callused Finger]

8-10's or 2-15's. JMO.

 

[c3powil]

Over the last 60 years the world of popular music has developed and existed using 412 and 410 cabs. How did that happen if they sound so bad?

The answer is they don't. Finding another cab that sounds better does not mean your cab sounds bad.

Get someone whose opinion you trust to walk around when you're playing and they can let you know.

True!

I know that all this is coming off as paranoid overthinking, but that's what I do best.

Anyway, I decided that if worse comes to worse, I can use my avatar 2x10 stacked vertically on top of the mesa to provide some horizontal dispersion.

 

[Grumry]

If the venues you're playing have more than a PA on a stick, you're probably going to run through their system and your amp will then be more for your own monitoring, not for FoH. If you can hear it on stage then it's doing exactly what it was made for.

 

[friendlybass]

Ive been bugging a 410 the last three years. Yeah not optimal dispersion but it sounds great. Honestly all that science and stuff is accurate, factual, and helpful. Its a big deal for some people but IMHO, try it first and do what works for you.

 

[Jim Carr]

SO, after posting a thread on bass presence and punch, I decided what I needed was big speaker area in a single cab. That brought me to pick up a Mesa Boogie Diesel 4x10 cab from my local CL. I got a good deal on it from a fellow TB member.

Of course the first thing I went and did was to ruin it by reading the excellent literature from Barefaced on their website. Thanks to Jim Carr for that. It opened my eyes to so much more about the speaker world.

Now I'm afraid that my 4x10 wont cut it in a live setting either. Of course it sounds monstrous when I'm sitting there directly in front of it, or in a small room, such as band practice, but what about the poor dispersion?...

Sorry, I guess, LOL. For me, I lost the love for my 410 when I had the following experience:

Played a set in a medium-sized basement club with my 410 (Epifani UL410 with Mesa M9 head). Not in PA.
Next act arrives late after we played. To save time, Bassist asks to use my rig and bass (RW Jazz).
I say OK, but decide to stand at the side of stage to keep an eye/ear on things.
Band plays and all I hear is mud. He had not touched the EQ or volume on the amp!

I move out front, and it sounds fine. Moved to opposite side from bass, muddy again.
Went back to original spot and stood in disbelief. Got a fEARful 15/6/1 not long after that.

 

[morgan138]

Now I'm afraid that my 4x10 wont cut it in a live setting either

It'll definitely cut it (assuming you have a decent amp and bass, and you're not playing freakishly loud or deep).

Having better horizontal dispersion would be a nice bonus, but it's only going to be a make-or-break thing if you're trying to get by with an otherwise underpowered rig.

if worse comes to worse, I can use my avatar 2x10 stacked vertically on top of the mesa to provide some horizontal dispersion.

Go for it, although I think you're trying to solve a problem that probably won't be a huge deal. If you're gonna do this, make sure the Avatar is 2x the impedance of the Mesa so that you're powering your cabs evenly!