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How speaker cone movement should you see in a cab?

D

Da LadY In Red

Dec 3, 2003
354
1
St. Louis, Missouri
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#1
So I've played the crap out of my Avatar 2x10 neo for years, and I've finally broke it. I now have the Avatar 2x12 neo as a replacement and am trying to be a little nicer to this cab.

However, this poses a question: how much are the speaker cones in a cabinet supposed to move? Should it only vibrate a little, or is it okay for them to visibly move around a little bit? Also, should a 12 inch speaker be able to mopve around more or less than the same type of speaker in a 10 inch verson?

Thanks for the help! I realize this is a decently difficult question to answer in all it's complexity, so a dumbed down, ballpark answer would be more than appreciated!
 
#2
It depends on the driver itself. My Markbass 12" moves so far you'd swear it was trying to bust through the grill, yet it's perfectly normal. A speaker will tell when it's moving too far. As long as there's no audible frapping going on, you're fine.
 
#3
Excess speaker travel is is a killer. A couple of things to look at, are the amp's damping factor and if there is a lot of sub sonic info going to the speaker. Some amps have a bass roll off or sub filter that stop the ultra lows but you will notice that your balls are not as happy!
I have ballooned and popped a few drivers due to too much sub info into the cabinet that had so much back pressure, the speaker surrounds (foam) blew out. The foam surrounds allowed for more sub low end and would sound great at med. output but when you try to get that same thick, rolling low end at high volume..."pop" goes the driver! Hello, 4x10s or 2x10s plus 15" and crossover instead of 2x10s!

Good luck!

:hiding:
 
#7
when I turn on my amp it gives a big click and sends a huge movement through my speaker

is this dangerous?

for now I turn on the solid state head with out the speaker connected and then plug it in after it has powered up since it does not make this huge swing in the speaker like this
 
#8
The 12" Deltalite II's xmax is 4.9mm. Xlim is 8.5mm. Xmax is the average of the forward and reverse travel of the cone, or a measure of either the forward or reverse travel of the cone, so you have a total of 9.8mm of movement where you will still get a clean sound out of the speaker and a total of 17mm before you reach it's physical limit. That's a LOT of travel.
 
#9
otis_thick said:
the speaker surrounds (foam) blew out.

:hiding:
Click to expand...
I'm unaware of any musical instrument drivers that use foam surrounds. There are a couple of pro-sound subwoofer drivers that use foam, but they are intended for horn loaded enclosures only, if used in a direct radiator cab they have insufficient sensitivity for pro-sound usage. Foam surrounds are common in auto sound and hi-fi drivers, which also have insufficient sensitivity for pro-sound usage. If one attempts to use them for pro-sound they will blow from the power they require to reach pro-sound output levels.
The 12" Deltalite II's xmax is 4.9mm. Xlim is 8.5mm. ...so you have a total of 9.8mm of movement where you will still get a clean sound out of the speaker and a total of 17mm before you reach it's physical limit. That's a LOT of travel.
Click to expand...
Xmax is as far as the cone will move before the onset of high levels of distortion. Going beyond that won't give any appreciable increase in volume, but will result in an appreciable increase in heat in the voice coil, potentially resulting in driver failure. Rule of thumb: if the drivers fart out turn it down.

JimmyM said:
Excess travel is a killer if the driver isn't designed for excess travel. The Markbass drivers are designed for it.
Click to expand...
I doubt that the Markbass drivers have any longer throw than others. The high visibility of their yellow cones probably just appears to move more.
 
#10
I have no doubt you're right, Bill. But let me tell you, the first time you see it, you freak right out. Well, you probably wouldn't, but I and many others have. Our guitarist thought it was blown the first time he saw its excursion.
 
#11
billfitzmaurice said:
I doubt that the Markbass drivers have any longer throw than others. The high visibility of their yellow cones probably just appears to move more.
Click to expand...
No, they definitely move more. We put this theory to the test in the store against several other cabs and funnily enough it was me who was saying the same thing as you Bill, that the orange cones just make the movement more visible. I had to swallow my pride and on this one. With grills off and my keyring torch for better luminosity on the black cones, the markbass cones clearly moved further.

They also seemed to move sooner, indicating a softer level of "stiffness " to the suspension, which I'm sure Bill will tell us more about if we ask nicely.
 
#13
Petebass said:
They also seemed to move sooner, indicating a softer level of "stiffness " to the suspension, which I'm sure Bill will tell us more about if we ask nicely.
Click to expand...
Moving further, possible, though doing so would also result in their being louder in similar cabinets. As for moving sooner, absolutely not. All drivers respond at exactly the same speed. If they appear to be moving sooner that's clearly an optical illusion, and that same illusion likely appiles to their apparantly moving further with the same output level, all other cabinet factors being equal.
 
#14
billfitzmaurice said:
Moving further, possible, though doing so would also result in their being louder in similar cabinets.
Click to expand...
Tick! the MB 410 is audibly "louder" than the Eden 410xlt, and they're the 2 loudest 4x10's in the store..........

billfitzmaurice said:
As for moving sooner, absolutely not. All drivers respond at exactly the same speed.
Click to expand...
I agree, but think you misunderstood my meaning of "sooner". I meant that if you start with the volume all the way down, and bring the volume up gradually there is no noticable movement from either black or orange speakers until the SPL reaches a certain point. The SPL level at which the speaker movement becomes noticable to the naked eye is lower on the MB then other cabs.To lessen the effect of the optical illusion, we removed all grilles and shined a light on the black cone to bake it look a pale colour.

From a T/S parameter point ov view, lets assume the MB suspension isn't as stiff as, for example, the Eden's suspension. How would that be reflected in the T/S parameters? Probably a higher X-max, and perhaps a higher QTS for the MB speaker?
 
#16
billfitzmaurice said:
I'm unaware of any musical instrument drivers that use foam surrounds. There are a couple of pro-sound subwoofer drivers that use foam, but they are intended for horn loaded enclosures only, if used in a direct radiator cab they have insufficient sensitivity for pro-sound usage. Foam surrounds are common in auto sound and hi-fi drivers, which also have insufficient sensitivity for pro-sound usage. If one attempts to use them for pro-sound they will blow from the power they require to reach pro-sound output levels.

The drivers were made by Eminence and Bag End in the early to mid 90's. They were in the original SWR Baby Blue combo amps as well as the early Bag End infra subs

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The above is from Bag End's site. Shown is the ELF m2 (rack version ) with 10" (sealed) cabs for stage even though the article is for Car Stereo. The ELF M1 and M2 used external DC power supplys. This allowed the use of the units in cars but they only had balanced XLR i/os

Dual 18" version
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This is a newer version
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You could get the Bag End subs in Stage (carpet) Road (sprayed cover) or Home (wood)

MCM and Parts express sold the old drivers with the Eminence Logo on the dust cap. I still have 2 originals and 2with replaced surrounds

:hiding:
Click to expand...
 
#17
otis_thick said:
The drivers were made by Eminence and Bag End in the early to mid 90's. They were in the original SWR Baby Blue combo amps as well as the early Bag End infra subs

:
Click to expand...
They're PA subwoofer drivers, intended for use in a small sealed cab driven by a Linkwitz transform circuit. They're not musical instrument drivers. If SWR did use them as such without the Linkwitz transform it was a misapplication. :(
 
#18
Petebass said:
From a T/S parameter point ov view, lets assume the MB suspension isn't as stiff as, for example, the Eden's suspension. How would that be reflected in the T/S parameters? Probably a higher X-max, and perhaps a higher QTS for the MB speaker?
Click to expand...
Using a softer suspension accompanied by a lower tuning the increased excursion compared to a cab loaded with stiffer suspensioned drivers tuned higher would be visible. All else being equal the softer suspension driver would have a higher Qts, so it would have less sensitivity but would go lower.
 
#20
Basslice said:
For example, you would never put a high excursion driver in a sealed cabinet - you need to let the air move.
Click to expand...
The opposite is usually the case. With cabs of equal volume a sealed box has less sensitivity than a vented box, so for equal output the sealed box driver requires longer excursion. The ELF system uses a very long excursion driver in a small sealed box to provide the same output as a standard driver in a larger vented box. The trade-off in so doing is sensitivity, so for that same output an ELF system requires on average four times the amplifier power that a vented box does.
 
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