You're absolutely correct. It's the 'Tone is ALL in the fingers' statement I hear so often that I'm questioning.
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How to get Geddy's tone on Tom Sawyer?
- Thread starter Myrriad
- Start date
How and why are these threads still being made? Seriously there must be hundreds of these threads...and they all have the same damn answers.
I hear ya.
I'm a P bass guy. I go for an even, punchy* tone(whatever THAT* means). Clear, defined notes, very 'Anthony Jackson.' Clean, easy to hear, but not in the way of anything else, with a tiny bit of grit. I prefer an AMP260 or 800RB amp. Simple.
I play with a medium touch--little fret noise or clank. Over the pickup or between it and the bridge. Never digging in at the neck. Smooth tone, but clear.
Now, along comes my best friend Mike, who plays in a metal band. He's all about Geddy, Entwistle, Squire etc. He plays very expensive custom basses with Alembic electronics and pickups, through a huge, amazing rig comprised of Pearce preamps(THREE of them, with midi channel switching for different tones), a high-end 32 band Rane EQ, and a dual-channel DBX 1066 compressor into a Crown K2 amp, feeding a pair of SWR Goliath cabs. Huge, absolutely massive sound. He's all about low action, brand-new Roto's, digging in at the neck, clank, overdrive.......Huge, huge sound. That's Mike, and his sound. Now.....
I swear to you, he comes over and picks up my generic P bass into my puny amp and it's HIM. ALL the noise, clank, overdrive, big-big sound--EVERYTHING.....and he hasn't touched any control except to turn the Tone knob on by bass all the way up. Not QUITE the same, but really close. Really.
I swear to God. Now.....
I go over to his place, pick up his mega-bass into his mega-rig, and well, it ain't my tone, but it sure as hell ain't HIS either. And I CAN'T get there with his bass and amp no matter what I do. But he can get really close with mine...............
I guess the moral of the story is, I dunno.
johnsonabq
Watch out where the huskies go...
Hmmm... maybe it's me but when Geddy was playing the Wal bass he had a sound that was unique to that bass. And if you listen to Geddy play his Jazz on the recording of Tom Sawyer and then listen to Tom Sawyer on Time Machine, those are two different sounds.
I really feel it's a combination of technique, equipment, and how well you can configure that equipment to recreate the sound in your head.
In Geddy's case he is very unique in the way he plays and that's why you can still tell it's him whatever bass, amp or, effects, he uses. He'll sound different, but you can tell it's him. But if you took Eddie Jackson, removed the overdriven GK amps mixed just right with a direct signal and made him play a Gibson EB-2 with flatwound strings through an Ampeg flip top you would never know it's him. IMHO
But they don't! Seriously: you can't tell the difference between Entwistle playing a P-bass and an Alembic? Or Geddy playing a Ric versus a Wal or Steinberger? Even with the heavy compression used on McCartney's tracks, careful ears can tell the difference between his Hofner and Rickenbacker.
These players "sound the way they always have" because of their STYLE, but not their TONE.
Have you first tried to experiment on your own? Or were you expecting someone to just deliver the magic formula to you on a silver platter?
MM
I'm a P-bass guy, not a J-bass guy. Of course a P-bass can get big fat harmonics. However the fact is that the uppermost harmonics will come out much better on a J-bass because of the bridge pickup.
P.S. Even with all of Entwistle's distortion, it's easy-peasy for any of us (bassists, anyway) to tell the difference between P-bass and Alembic: "Substitute" live in 1970 and 1979:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdo9vbMtAwM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZUMg6Maht4
Not trying to beat a dead horse, I just love John Entwistle's various tones for the same reason I love Geddy Lee's.
So, I'm just going to jump in here and add my 2¢ about the tone/style thing before this thread gets nasty and/or closed.
In my view, there is a distinct difference between playing style and tone. They are indubitably LINKED, but they are not the same. Let's take Entwistle as an example since he's already been mentioned. Example one will be his tone on Subsitute (the studio recording). He used a Gibson EB-0 or EB-3 on this recording, and hist tone is fairly tubby for Entwistle. Then let's listen to Substitute recorded Live at Leeds. Obviously the same man playing bass, the style is the same, no doubt. But the tone is quite different. Then listen to say, something off of Who's Next, say Baba O'Reily. Different tone again. Same style of playing, but sounds different.
Next in this little thought experiment, let's think of Andy Fraser. His tone on the Free albums is quite honky and fat. It's a fantastic tone in my opinion. His playing style is quite distinct too, very funky with a good amount of double stops and cool runs. But imagine that instead of playing his EB-3 into Marshalls, he played a early Precision bass or Telecaster Bass with roundwounds and the tone wide open into a stack of Hiwatts. His funky style of syncopation with double stops would definitely still be distinct, you'd recognize his playing style, but the tone would be completely different. I can cop his playing style, and by rolling down the tone controls of my bass I can get a decent tubby tone with a decent midrange honk, but even with that and the playing style, it's not the same time. In part, because I'm not Andy Fraser and my style will never be dead on, and in part because I'm not using the same gear. It's a two part equation.
And finally, let's look at Geddy. Listen to the Fifth Order of Angels bootleg, early show with Neil Peart, where Geddy is using either a P or Ric (it's right around the time he switched, I'm not sure which he's using, I think it's the P). Then listen to his tone on any of the Moving Pictures album. You can easily hear it's the same guy based on his playing style, but the tone is totally different. There are similarities between the two tones, part of which come from his aggressive playing style causing lots of fret noise and overdrive in the amp, but the Ampegs and Sunns on Fifth Order of Angels do NOT have the same tone as his Moving Pictures setup. Imagine if he was playing a hofner strung with nylon tapewounds into a B-15. Do you think his tone would at all be the same? Style yes, tone no.
Now, as I said earlier, this is not to say that tone and style are unrelated. If your playing style is quite aggressive and you dig in heavily, that will of course affect your tone, as it will cause clank and fret noise and overdrive in the amp. If you play with a pick, that will affect your tone. The only way to FULLY achieve Geddy's tone is to cop his style of aggressive playing in addition to selecting the right gear and EQ too. If I decided to play Motown like Jamerson through Geddy's rig, I would not sound like Geddy. If I decided to play in Geddy's style through Jamerson's setup, I wouldn't sound like Geddy.
So to the OP, there's some very helpful posts here. Use them to get closer gearwise to Geddy. But take into account that you need to also cop his playing style (though I'm sure you already know that if you're looking into replicating his tone). I know this post will probably be buried or be found utterly offensive by some "it's all in the fingers" guys, but I think the argument has just been beat to death without either side really acknowledging that it's a middle path, not "only in fingers", but also not exclusively in gear.
PS: Just thinking more about it, maybe on could say that style is independent of tone, but tone is affected, but not entirely dependent on style. Sort of a Rectangle/Square deal.
In my view, there is a distinct difference between playing style and tone. They are indubitably LINKED, but they are not the same. Let's take Entwistle as an example since he's already been mentioned. Example one will be his tone on Subsitute (the studio recording). He used a Gibson EB-0 or EB-3 on this recording, and hist tone is fairly tubby for Entwistle. Then let's listen to Substitute recorded Live at Leeds. Obviously the same man playing bass, the style is the same, no doubt. But the tone is quite different. Then listen to say, something off of Who's Next, say Baba O'Reily. Different tone again. Same style of playing, but sounds different.
Next in this little thought experiment, let's think of Andy Fraser. His tone on the Free albums is quite honky and fat. It's a fantastic tone in my opinion. His playing style is quite distinct too, very funky with a good amount of double stops and cool runs. But imagine that instead of playing his EB-3 into Marshalls, he played a early Precision bass or Telecaster Bass with roundwounds and the tone wide open into a stack of Hiwatts. His funky style of syncopation with double stops would definitely still be distinct, you'd recognize his playing style, but the tone would be completely different. I can cop his playing style, and by rolling down the tone controls of my bass I can get a decent tubby tone with a decent midrange honk, but even with that and the playing style, it's not the same time. In part, because I'm not Andy Fraser and my style will never be dead on, and in part because I'm not using the same gear. It's a two part equation.
And finally, let's look at Geddy. Listen to the Fifth Order of Angels bootleg, early show with Neil Peart, where Geddy is using either a P or Ric (it's right around the time he switched, I'm not sure which he's using, I think it's the P). Then listen to his tone on any of the Moving Pictures album. You can easily hear it's the same guy based on his playing style, but the tone is totally different. There are similarities between the two tones, part of which come from his aggressive playing style causing lots of fret noise and overdrive in the amp, but the Ampegs and Sunns on Fifth Order of Angels do NOT have the same tone as his Moving Pictures setup. Imagine if he was playing a hofner strung with nylon tapewounds into a B-15. Do you think his tone would at all be the same? Style yes, tone no.
Now, as I said earlier, this is not to say that tone and style are unrelated. If your playing style is quite aggressive and you dig in heavily, that will of course affect your tone, as it will cause clank and fret noise and overdrive in the amp. If you play with a pick, that will affect your tone. The only way to FULLY achieve Geddy's tone is to cop his style of aggressive playing in addition to selecting the right gear and EQ too. If I decided to play Motown like Jamerson through Geddy's rig, I would not sound like Geddy. If I decided to play in Geddy's style through Jamerson's setup, I wouldn't sound like Geddy.
So to the OP, there's some very helpful posts here. Use them to get closer gearwise to Geddy. But take into account that you need to also cop his playing style (though I'm sure you already know that if you're looking into replicating his tone). I know this post will probably be buried or be found utterly offensive by some "it's all in the fingers" guys, but I think the argument has just been beat to death without either side really acknowledging that it's a middle path, not "only in fingers", but also not exclusively in gear.
PS: Just thinking more about it, maybe on could say that style is independent of tone, but tone is affected, but not entirely dependent on style. Sort of a Rectangle/Square deal.
This thread seems to be covering a lot of ground, but it's mostly not bass model specific...let's try Technique.
Geddy plays it on both I think. On the record he definitely played on the bridge pup, listen to that clack! You can't get that clack and pop playing at the bridge. But when he had the Wal, he play it on the bridge pup.
Geddy never started doing weird stuff with his index until recently, he plays and played this with the traditional two fingers.
Style + processing.
Just listen to a lot of Rush, and play by ear, and you'll pick up the style. It's aggressive, deft, and basically just requires chops. If you can't get it, it's probably because you need to practice more, rather than some change in technique. Processing and effects are a different matter entirely.
As far as a bass goes, single coils would be best for the high sparkle, but the actual model is not as critical. I think Geddy actually said once that he can't remember which bass he used on each Moving Pictures track.
Just listen to a lot of Rush, and play by ear, and you'll pick up the style. It's aggressive, deft, and basically just requires chops. If you can't get it, it's probably because you need to practice more, rather than some change in technique. Processing and effects are a different matter entirely.
As far as a bass goes, single coils would be best for the high sparkle, but the actual model is not as critical. I think Geddy actually said once that he can't remember which bass he used on each Moving Pictures track.
Rush in Rio VS. Different Stages live.
Same bass, same fingers, different gear, different sound.
Totaly different!
Same bass, same fingers, different gear, different sound.
Totaly different!
Why do we spend money on preamps, pedals, and then trade up for something that 'sounds' better?
We might as well use Gorilla practice amps poorly miked, or run a compleatly dry DI feed into the board.
Geddy certainly doesn't.
I think the 'style' is in the fingers, not the 'sound'.
btw, this is just a opinion, I'm not gonna fight over it.
We might as well use Gorilla practice amps poorly miked, or run a compleatly dry DI feed into the board.
Geddy certainly doesn't.
I think the 'style' is in the fingers, not the 'sound'.
btw, this is just a opinion, I'm not gonna fight over it.
Ric5
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- Jan 29, 2008
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You need some distortion/fuzz/overdrive to get this tone ...
And yes it was the jazz bass ... but a Ric will work as well. He played the Ric on the video and the jazz on the recording.
And yes it was the jazz bass ... but a Ric will work as well. He played the Ric on the video and the jazz on the recording.
I don't argue that the fingers greatly affect the tone, but I think sometimes it's overstated. I don't think I sound the same when I play my Fender P vs. my Lakland P vs. my Lull J. I hear a distinct difference in tone when I switch between them. If they all sounded the same, I'd sell all of them but one!
johnsonabq
Watch out where the huskies go...
I don't think they're saying that it's ALL in the fingers. Of course the bass plays a role in your sound too. But, the fingers/pick play a great part here. Especially with Geddy Lee. The fact that he has developed his own way of playing the bass with his fingers in order to sound like a pick is VERY unique and you will never be able to completely imitate him without playing with his unique finger technique.
I think Geddy says it best with: " I play this bass to get this sound", "I do this style of picking to accomplish this . . ." He's a creative genius! In style, in technique, in song craft, in amp set-up, AND seems he's constantly evolving. There is the key . . . don't stop trying to get the sound you want. It's there . . . in most any gear ( or something close) . . . in vour style ( ditto). The hard part is doing it again once you switch your amp settings and feel for the next song, LOL.
I have a question about the isolated bass tracks. Is that the only bass track on the song or did they mix a few together? We all know how effective that can be
I have a question about the isolated bass tracks. Is that the only bass track on the song or did they mix a few together? We all know how effective that can be
