I feel genuinely dissapointed.

[chadds]

The OP didn't even mention sound (because the electronics weren't fully functional in the first bass), so up to this point I have been speaking purely about feel.

But, even in terms of sound, I think the debate over the difference in wood tones (in electric basses) is greatly over exaggerated. In acoustic instruments, wood matters, because the wood is your amplifier. But with an electric bass, the instant you hit that note it is transferred to your pickups, and out of your amplifier/speakers. How much can wood really impact that note in a fraction of a second?

Wood impacts the initial punch of a note, and it impacts the (over-valued) long sustaining notes. Beyond that, I don't think the wood has much to do with the sound of an electric bass. The note is much more impacted by the player's attack, setup, the string type, pickup type, preamp, amp, speakers, etc..

And the great "sustain" debate is always a funny one to me. How many bass players rely on long sustaining notes? Yet so many players are obsessed with sustain. I always wonder what their music must sound like, with all these long sustaining bass notes that they desire so much? In reality, you can typically get enough useful sustain for the average bass player out of a cheap instrument. As long as an instrument is setup decently, it's easy to make a big, fat string sustain.

What if the bassist wants the bass to have great staccato tone and long sustain? What if the bassist wants no limitations? Some of us finger pick and want some strings or harmonics to ring while playing other strings. Do we want our basses to hold up a flag and say, “Wait! We don’t do that?”
Technically the second pulse comes at the speed of sound and travels through the bass body easily or not and to our ears adds or doesn’t, tone to the first pulse of the string pluck that is mostly string and pickup. While focusing only down the signal chain we may be satisfied with what we get. Some of us focus at the beginning then choose our signal chain to deliver that. It’s a personal choice. It may be based on all the different musics and settings you bring bass.

 

[foothilla]

What if the bassist wants the bass to have great staccato tone and long sustain? What if the bassist wants no limitations? Some of us finger pick and want some strings or harmonics to ring while playing other strings. Do we want our basses to hold up a flag and say, “Wait! We don’t do that?”
Technically the second pulse comes at the speed of sound and travels through the bass body easily or not and to our ears adds or doesn’t, tone to the first pulse of the string pluck that is mostly string and pickup. While focusing only down the signal chain we may be satisfied with what we get. Some of us focus at the beginning then choose our signal chain to deliver that. It’s a personal choice. It may be based on all the different musics and settings you bring bass.

Sustain away, my friend. Sustain all night long!

My point is simply that you can get even a cheap bass to sustain for a couple of 80BPM measures. It's not much of a challenge to get a cheap bass to do that. And, even if it's the last note of a song, or a harmonic,...how often are you letting a note ring more than a couple measures? How often do you even let a note sustain for a single measure?

 

[chadds]

A part of your post was about sustain. A part of mine was about sustain. I spoke to other aspects of your post as well.

This can be a dead horse discussion. I don’t have to convince a soul. I play what I like with great players and love my work. I choose what gear I want. I speak up when posters apparently are saying, “no one needs”, “no one can hear this or that”, or the favorite, “audiences don’t care.” The focus on gear to bring about what is ear and technique development needs to be emphasized. Even then they are just words to hear or not.

seriously

 

[foothilla]

A part of your post was about sustain. A part of mine was about sustain. I spoke to other aspects of your post as well.

This can be a dead horse discussion. I don’t have to convince a soul. I play what I like with great players and love my work. I choose what gear I want. I speak up when posters apparently are saying, “no one needs”, “no one can hear this or that”, or the favorite, “audiences don’t care.” The focus on gear to bring about what is ear and technique development needs to be emphasized. Even then they are just words to hear or not.

seriously

Ummm,...I'm glad you play what you like. I play what I like as well.

Outside of my sustain comment.....I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I've said?

 

[Mike Whitfield]

The OP didn't even mention sound (because the electronics weren't fully functional in the first bass), so up to this point I have been speaking purely about feel.

But, even in terms of sound, I think the debate over the difference in wood tones (in electric basses) is greatly over exaggerated. In acoustic instruments, wood matters, because the wood is your amplifier. But with an electric bass, the instant you hit that note it is transferred to your pickups, and out of your amplifier/speakers. How much can wood really impact that note in a fraction of a second?

Wood impacts the initial punch of a note, and it impacts the (over-valued) long sustaining notes. Beyond that, I don't think the wood has much to do with the sound of an electric bass. The note is much more impacted by the player's attack, setup, the string type, pickup type, preamp, amp, speakers, etc..

And the great "sustain" debate is always a funny one to me. How many bass players rely on long sustaining notes? Yet so many players are obsessed with sustain. I always wonder what their music must sound like, with all these long sustaining bass notes that they desire so much? In reality, you can typically get enough useful sustain for the average bass player out of a cheap instrument. As long as an instrument is setup decently, it's easy to make a big, fat string sustain.

I agree with all that. Darrel Braun did an experiment where he progressively cut away the body of a Strat knock-off and measured the frequency response. It changed, but very little. For the body wood to color the tone, the vibration has to pass from the strings, through the bridge, back through the bridge, and back into the strings. That’s a very small percentage of energy. I think one could make a much better case for neck construction, but without doubt it’s swamped by all those other factors.

 

[chadds]

I agree with all that. Darrel Braun did an experiment where he progressively cut away the body of a Strat knock-off and measured the frequency response. It changed, but very little. For the body wood to color the tone, the vibration has to pass from the strings, through the bridge, back through the bridge, and back into the strings. That’s a very small percentage of energy. I think one could make a much better case for neck construction, but without doubt it’s swamped by all those other factors.

All of the components matter to some degree. In fact when choosing a bass a balance of those contributions is something to feel and hear. Those other factors swamp if you allow them to. If your sound comes from your cab then less back up the signal chain will matter. If I was after my choice of power tube distortion it would be Ampeg over Mesa but I can get either to obscure any distinctions between P basses. Or I can get my rig to sound first like my bass so it really will sound like me. Then if I want clarity or dig in dirt it’s my choice at my hands.

The real question is why do Gibson ES335s, SGs, and Les Pauls sound distinctly different from each other when they have identical electronics?

 

[foothilla]

The real question is why do Gibson ES335s, SGs, and Les Pauls sound distinctly different from each other when they have identical electronics?

There are numerous reasons why they can sound different. The big reasons are:

1) different pickup output
2) different distance between the pickup and the strings
3) different action (neck relief, saddle height, nut height, etc.)
4) different strings
5) different amps/cabs
6) different player attack

People rarely compare instruments that have all these things identically matched. But, when I was doing thousands of setups we did these kind of tests. If the same essential model is set up the exactly same, with the same exact pickups/amp/cab/strings, played by the same player,.......you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an alder body and an ash body, when amplified.

Without amplification,....maybe,....if you have a really critical ear. Amplified, you'd just be guessing.

Acoustic instruments, different story. I can tell the difference between a Martin D-18 and a Martin D-28 after hearing one chord. The difference between the mahogany body and the rosewood body is substantial in an acoustic instrument. But once you get into amplified solid bodies the subtleties of wood get buried behind those other factors mentioned.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't pay good money for electric instrument woods. I've paid obscene amounts of money for pretty woods. I've also paid a lot of money for very light woods. For instance, one of my basses is a Dusty Hill Signature Custom Shop Fender. It cost a lot of money, and I don't even like Dusty Hill. I bought it because the bass (i.e. the wood) is obscenely lightweight, and the bass has a great feeling neck. So I'm fine with expensive instruments with expensive woods. But, if it's an electric instrument I'd select wood for it's weight and it's look (not for the sound of the wood). Any common (solid body) instrument wood can be made to sound great,.....if the instrument plays well, has good electronics, and is coming through good amplification.

 

[chadds]

Good points.

My experience was same player same amp same room.
Those setup details would seem as insignificant as the construction to someone arguing pro or con.

I have to stop for a bit. I’m hosting the Flat Earth Society potluck.

 

[foothilla]

Good points.
Those setup details would seem as insignificant as the construction to someone arguing pro or con.

If you think those setup details are "insignificant", I'm guessing that you never experimented with something as simple as pickup height. The difference in response is drastic.

Same with action. Notes won't ring/sustain well when action is set too low. Set the action too high and it's easy to send notes sharp. Both will result is the sound being noticeably different from proper action ("proper" action is relative to the player's attack).

On that note, in most guitar stores you can grab two of the exact same model instrument off the wall, and the setup won't be the same. Shipping, humidity levels, temperatures and time all have an effect on setup,...and very few music stores spend time maintaining the setup of brand new instruments.

 

[chadds]

If you think those setup details are "insignificant", I'm guessing that you never experimented with something as simple as pickup height. The difference in response is drastic.

Same with action. Notes won't ring/sustain well when action is set too low. Set the action too high and it's easy to send notes sharp. Both will result is the sound being noticeably different from proper action ("proper" action is relative to the player's attack).

On that note, in most guitar stores you can grab two of the exact same model instrument off the wall, and the setup won't be the same. Shipping, humidity levels, temperatures and time all have an effect on setup,...and very few music stores spend time maintaining the setup of brand new instruments.

No! You misunderstood. Those setup details would “seem” insignificant to people arguing pro or con this issue. That’s what I wrote. I know they are significant! Even ignoring the witness point when stringing a bass makes a very dull response.

 

[Mike Whitfield]

All of the components matter to some degree. In fact when choosing a bass a balance of those contributions is something to feel and hear. Those other factors swamp if you allow them to. If your sound comes from your cab then less back up the signal chain will matter. If I was after my choice of power tube distortion it would be Ampeg over Mesa but I can get either to obscure any distinctions between P basses. Or I can get my rig to sound first like my bass so it really will sound like me. Then if I want clarity or dig in dirt it’s my choice at my hands.

The real question is why do Gibson ES335s, SGs, and Les Pauls sound distinctly different from each other when they have identical electronics?

I think that construction does make a difference, just a very small one. Hollow bodies might be a special case as their resonance seems to drive the strings more. And overall stiffness definitely makes a difference - but while I can see that different spectral response on a scope, honestly I can't hear it. My ears simply aren't that good, to reliably pick out an SG from a Les Paul given identical electronics, settings and set-ups. With basses it's even worse; even though most of my hearing loss is upper spectrum, the reduced spectrum of a bass guitar makes it almost impossible for me to pick out such subtle differences as between individuals of the same age and specifications.

I should not have mentioned sound anyway, as the OP's issue was the different feel. His questions are going to be whether he can get the blue bass repaired and returned to him at a cost he can live with, and if not, whether he can get the silver bass to feel just like the blue one at a cost he can live with. And also probably whether he wants to live with his dream bass in the "wrong" color, assuming feel can be set to his liking.

 

[foothilla]

No! You misunderstood. Those setup details would “seem” insignificant to people arguing pro or con this issue. That’s what I wrote. I know they are significant! Even ignoring the witness point when stringing a bass makes a very dull response.

Sorry, my bad. I should have read your comment more carefully.

 

[chadds]

Sorry, my bad. I should have read your comment more carefully.

Saul Goodman!
I have to apologize too because you mentioned the second pulse earlier and I missed that.
So which one of you brought up the sound anyway!?
Just kidding!!
He copped to it.
May we all have a happy new year without controversy!

 

[dsteinschneider]

Perhaps this is a good thread to drop in this article from Music & Sound Retailer:

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