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Ideal stage setup

I've done a search on the forum and haven't found a complete answer, just snippets of stuff.

My cover band project has been practicing for months and is planning on doing a "dress-rehearsal" to check out our accumulated equipment, see what works and how well, so we can get what we might need before booking gigs. (We'll be doing this rehearsal in a 48' x 144' structure -- a greenhouse.) The guitarists are talking about pumping our sound through the PA, and they've asked whether I want to run through the PA, too. I'm concerned that, at this point, going through the PA would compromise my sound, even if it would be capable of handling that sound in the first place.

What I have to work with for my rig is two 300 watt combos (each with 1x15 plus horn) that I can run linked in stereo. Dispersion was mentioned in one of the threads as a reason for going through the PA. But I understand that low frequencies are largely omnidirectional; dispersion would be primarily for higher frequencies? (Which I rely on to get much of my sound.) And then I researched online and came across this article regarding the problems associated with bass response using separated arrays. Link Removed. A thread here mentioned angling two separate cabinets in your rig to achieve the high-end dispersion, while retaining the bottom.

The PA we're working with right now consists of a 15" and 12" woofer, a couple mid/high-range horns and a piezo tweeter bank on each side; we'll get 350 watts per side from our power board. I really see only vocals going through there. Maybe bleeding some guitars into the PA mix, and possibly a little bass drum but definitely not bass. Am I wrong? We're looking to hit small to medium venues, probably no more than several hundred people. We'll be running our own sound from stage, and quite honestly, I've been the one making the adjustments at practice to keep things sounding decent and not feeding back. So this question has direct practical application for me.

Back in the day, we used to mic everything through our PA system, which rated in the thousands of watts and involved many JBL and Voice of the Theater bass bins and horns. Our sound guy would put a mic in front of my cabinet, and I didn't much care how he made it sound, as long as I was getting paid. (He must have done alright with it.) This time around, though, I care.

My questions then: would my proposed set up (combos set up on floor, angled toward each other) be the best way to keep my tone as evenly dispersed throughout the room, assuming I use stage volume only? What angle works best? And if we decide to upgrade the system to handle the bass, would it be more effective to just hook a central powered subwoofer into the system rather than upgrade the speaker arrays and power amps? And how could this be done, given that there is no sub output on our board?

Thanks for any suggestions anyone can make.
 
Do you know what your PA cabinets actually are? If its 20 year old Yamaha or brand new Meyer makes a big difference.

Thats really what's important although Id venture a guess that you're probably right thinking that bass may be asking too much from this pa. What Id be tempted to do is rely on your rig for the majority of the sound but still send a line to the pa. That way, if you cant be heard its just a matter of reaching for the fader.

Using the pa to 'spread around' bass coming largely from the stage isn't strictly the best way to do this, bit its been done before and it works. :)

RE you last question, a good budget crossover (DBX223 ideally) would sit after the board and separate the LF from the mains signal to feed a subwoofer. This is always a good idea even without subs as it removes harmful LF (such as stage rumble and kick drum) from speakers that cant handle it.
 
Hmmmm . . . I don't remember right now what they are -- a combination of different brands, I believe. They're not big-name high-end speakers, probably something akin to Menace "DJ" speakers, that I've seen some other bands around here using. They're relatively new and rated for higher wattage. Sound good at practice (and we practice kinda loud), but never did it with instruments running through. They're even talking about submixing drums and micing them through, too.

Does the on-stage amp setup I described sound reasonable in the situations I described? Or is one stacked atop the other better?
 
If everything was alright "back in the day", why wouldn't be alright now?Leave your amps where they are, tell everyone to turn down, and run everything thru the PA. Your stage volume should basically be loud enough for you to hear and feel. You shouldn't be relying on your rig to provide low end for the entire band, that's what the PA is for.

Go find a decent sound guy. Running the PA from the stage isn't usually the best way to get a good mix. ;)
 
If everything was alright "back in the day", why wouldn't be alright now?Leave your amps where they are, tell everyone to turn down, and run everything thru the PA. Your stage volume should basically be loud enough for you to hear and feel. You shouldn't be relying on your rig to provide low end for the entire band, that's what the PA is for.

Go find a decent sound guy. Running the PA from the stage isn't usually the best way to get a good mix. ;)
No but it's not hard to do. Tons of bands right now are playing gigs and sounding great even without a soundman. Besides, I don't think his PA is enough to run too much low end, so that may not be such a great idea.

Here is an interesting thread on running stage volume that I started earlier this week:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=512714

Kris, I think your venues would be fine for stage volume, however, the big drawback is lack of dispersion of mids and highs past 800 hz, as you're well aware of. So what our resident audio guru Bill FM said for me to do was use stage volume for the lows and run a mic on a speaker through the PA high passed at around 800 hz. You could do that with a DI as well, but I prefer a mic'ed speaker sound over a DI sound so that's what I would do.

Some do the cross-stage thing like you're proposing, but that's more of an onstage thing for the other folks in the band than a house thing IMHO. You're still going to get places in the audience where they won't hear your mids and highs. But if you run mids and highs through the PA, you get more even coverage through the house.

Anyway, read that thread and see what you think.
 
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Well, we tried it with micing the guitars and running bass with stage volume. It actually worked out pretty decently, and we got a good balance between the vocals and all the instruments. We miced a little bit of the guitars back through the monitors mainly for the drummer to hear, but it worked for me, too. The PA handled the load surprisingly well, without distorting. Running through two sets of tunes as a "dress rehearsal," I apparently wasn't loud enough on only a couple songs. I may try to make the attempt to mic the mid-and-higher frequencies to bring it out more.

I know from past experience that our setup is not typical of most bars and clubs, but it felt good to have space to move around and open wide up (yes, it was in a greenhouse):

RockSlyd-2.jpg
 
At least you had some nice scenery...glad the gig went well. Is that a Geddy? Sharp!

Another thing you can do if you want to spread your mids and highs better is stack your combos and turn the bottom tweeter off. If you have them side by side, they beam like the equivalent of a 30-inch speaker. I use a 215 setup too, and it makes a big difference in off axis performance IMHO.
 
Well I'm not sure whether this is applicable, but the stereo speakers I build for a different market are typically 10" or 12" woofer plus horn. I spread them apart and toe them in by about 45 degrees, and the result is fairly uniform tonal balance throughout the (admittedly much smaller) listening area. Would it work in your situation? I don't know, but given that you have two bass cabs might be worth a try.
 
For the size and spread of your area to fill, I wonder if 300watt combo's are enough power?
Are they actually putting out 300 a piece or only 150 watts without extension speakers?
In which case I would recommend adding another speaker cab to each combo, or just using one with extension. and the other facing in as a band monitor


Just my humble opinion based on frustrating experiences
 
looking at that pa i'm guessing you don't want to rely on it for the bass.

Like jimmy said, stack those combos vertically. (try on their sides). dispersion will be much better that way. point them both straight ahead. turn one tweet off, or flip one combo over so the tweets are as close to each other possible.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that your drummer is a bit loud.
:p
 
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that your drummer is a bit loud.
:p

LOL!!! You hit THAT nail on the head!

The amps are rated at 300 watts -- peak, I presume, probably 175-200 RMS. I run a hot stereo signal into one from my pedal board and daisy chain the second one from a stereo link out on the first. Both amps are set at 6 on the mains volume and the controlling gain knob is set at 5. EQ flat, and the proprietary "tone shaper" switch set off. Its a good, clean sound, and I could probably push louder without undue distortion setting in, either by boosting mains or EQ settings. I'm usually reluctant to push my amps too hard, for fear of explosion. :D: It makes my belly rumble and my bell-bottoms flap 5 or 6 feet in front of it, but I was told by our "test audience" that I could have been a little louder on a couple songs. Other than that, we got good feedback (after we back one of the guitarist a bit in the PA). I've yet to hear the recording we made of the session.

The horns don't switch off; I'd have to go into the cab and disconnect it, and I don't kow how that would affect the impedance matching or crossover. I presume that being a combo, the setup is engineered to best match the speaker setup with the amp for greater efficiency. Also, I often gig in smaller venues with just one amp, and don't want to mess with the backup. I can stack them though, and will likely try that when we repeat the session in a couple weeks.

That you for all the suggestions!
 
forget about disconnecting the tweet. when stacking it will sound better if you can turn them so the tweets are close together.

The fact that your drummer plays more than a 4 piece setup was the dead giveaway. That and the bandanna. :p

2nd guess, he doesn't gig out all that often (let's say less than once a month).
 
The fact that your drummer plays more than a 4 piece setup was the dead giveaway. That and the bandanna. :p

2nd guess, he doesn't gig out all that often (let's say less than once a month).

Spot on again! Actually, nobody in this band has gigged out for a while, which is why we're doing dress rehearsals. Although I've been gigging out with my other band once or thrice a month since October. I use only one amp with that outfit. Funny, THAT drummer uses a bass drum, a floor tom, a snare and a couple cymbals. That's it. And no bandana. :)