If not a PA cab, perhaps a class d amp and a cab with a tweeter?

[E4R104]

I've been on the fence about what to move to for an additional setup / louder setup / better setup for awhile. I posted before in regards to selecting a powered PA cab for my application. The hierarchy of need is double bass (acoustic and EUB), bass guitar (4 string only) and electric guitar. All instruments go through a daw based preamp via a 24/96 audio interface using a Mac Mini.

Thus far, I've liked the QSC CP12 in terms of size / weight / sound. The cliche sort of holds true though, it lacks some of the oomphhh of the amp in a room. I thought that was a silly statement before I heard it. Don't get me wrong, it sounds very good, but is sort of more like listening to a hifi vs a live instrument.

I practice with a Carvin AG100D, which for jazz ensemble volumes in a small practice space is fine, and it's pretty decent sounding. It has a highish noise floor, and I suspect the cab would sound better with a different amp. It's also surprisingly good with IReal pro and recordings put through it for playing over when I practice by myself.

It's made me think about getting a lightweight class D amp and a cab with a compression horn or piezo tweeter. My thought being that if I can select a cab that's light on coloration (much like the AG100D cab) and a fairly transparent but higher quality amplifier, I might get the best of both worlds. IE a sort of "FRFR" type setup that's a little more impactful than a powered PA speaker.

I can get an AG112 speaker (the cab with no amp) of the Carvin. It handles 300w and has a nominal impedance of 8 ohms. I have a line on a used one locally on the cheap. Similarly, I have a line on a Ibanez Promethean 300H. My total nut for this would be in the ball park of $250.00 vs $400.00 for a used CP12 pa speaker. I know I generally like the CP12, but wouldn't mind a little more amp-ishness to invent a stupid word, and the savings would help during a stressful time financially.

Is this idea of mine asinine? Are the cabs and amps that are marketed to bass players as full range so heavily colored that the tones I get from my front end are going to be unrecognizable from monitors and headphones to such a contraption? Is it going to be ghastly useless with a modeling pre for when I pretend to be a guitar player

The long and short of it is, I get to try the CP12, I thought it was okay. I wasn't just in love with it. This experiment with an amp and cab would be a flyer. I suspect I can sell everything if I hate it, but why bother if it's a crap plan. Soooooo, thoughts?

 

[gtirard]

I don't think it exists for your budget.

 

[Wasnex]

The answer is try before you buy.

If you demo a bunch of different 12 + horn bass cabs, none of them will sound the same. Only you can decide which sounds best.

Regarding the CP12...maybe you would be happy if you added some tone shaping. Bass cabs don't necessarily have to play super low to sound big and fat. IMHO we get most of our perception of fat from between about 75 and 125hz. So if you want more fat, maybe try a gentle boost centered around 100hz, with bandwidth in the range of 3/4 to 1 octave.

I generally prefer to start with more of a full-range, flat-response (FRFR) myself. Then I can use EQ to dial in whatever tone I want. I think FRFR is more important for upright than bass guitar.

 

[WayneP]

Expounding on @Wasnex thoughts a bit, you could get a bass pre-amp to use with the CP12. That would have tone shaping with a FRFR speaker.

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[ashtray]

Something like a fEarful F112 cab with a rack mount preamp and rack power amp would be most ideal for your situation - to the point you could run different preamps for bass or guitar but the same power amp and cab. But that's a pricey setup.

Depends how much volume you need, or how clear you like your tone, but you may have trouble finding an all-in-one solution. Perhaps an older PA cab could be found for cheap, with a horn "volume" control to dial back the highs.

 

[micguy]

There is a tradeoff in loudspeaker design - loud (efficiency), small, and low frequency bandwidth - you can't have all 3. Making it a PA speaker instead of a bass guitar speaker doesn't change that tradeoff. PA's can have really fantastic low end, but they don't do it with 12 inch drivers - the subs in a touring rig have a couple 15 or 18 inch drivers, several thousand watts to drive each cabinet, and they use a LOT of them. And one of them won't fit in your car.

So, yes, PA's can be far more capable than a bass amp, but not if they're the same size. If you want something more capable than what you have, the likelihood is it's gonna be bigger (and cost a bunch more).

My first amp was a fairly capable rig - it had a couple of 115 cabinets - built by someone who was studying acoustics at the time (me), they were bigger than the typical 115's of that era (which in turn are bigger than what is made today). As a result of not going for small, I was able to get both efficiency and decent low frequency extension. As a result, the thing would easily keep up with a loud rock drummer, with a 90 watt amplifier. Nowadays, yes, people have smaller rigs, but they need hundreds of watts to keep up, and they don' t have the low frequency extension that that rig had.

A lot of things have been made smaller in the decade since, but a small, good bass guitar cabinet? If you want a rig as good as the one I had back then, it's gonna be pretty big. It doesn't have to be as heavy, though....

 

[DJ Bebop]

I don't think it exists for your budget.

If he had the dough, I would suggest this...

Especially the SW 115. It is as much or more of a FRFR cabinet than many that are marketed as such. Light, loud, somewhat small. I like the WD800 head, some of the kids prefer the D800+. Whichever, they are both great heads.

But yeah, more money is needed.

 

[E4R104]

So conceptually, I'm very familiar with loudspeaker design considerations as I've done a few of my own for hi-fi diy audio fun. I don't know a lot about pro sound of guitar / bass gear at the cab / amp / combo level as being able to play with these has always been a little out of budget.

I guess what I don't have a good handle on is the design aspirations of bass cabs. My impression is guitar cabs are more like instruments, with little regard to linearity and other characteristics which are meant to create some semblance of, for lack of a better term, authentic reproduction of a signal. They're a big part of the tone. A PA cab seems as though it should ostensibly be pursuing a more hi-fi style reproduction of a signal right? So what I'm at a loss for here is what degree of coloration is comparatively present on bass separates using cabs with horns and these more modern compact, lightweight class D amps? I know that's a broad question. I may be looking for a swiss army knife and those are usually terrible at lots of different jobs vs being good at one.

I'm working hard on improving my jazz chops and I practice on my EUB with headphones quite a bit. I also practice on my reg DB with no reinforcement playing my back tracks through a pair of Mirage OM12s which throw a big sound stage as their dipoles, so they feel pretty "live" in the room. I'd like to be able to pursue my live sound approach using modeling preamps for guitar and electric bass and various other eq and dynamics processing for the DBs through fx chains in Reaper on the Mac. My hope is to find a balance between something that is almost like a really, really loud monitor for a mix and an amp.

As I type this, I'm realizing this seems pretty unrealistic in terms of an ask. There are so many wild card parameters beyond the amp and cab, like the environment itself being chief amongst them. I dunno, best jack of all trades that doesn't suck horribly at any of them? The budget is tight, but the volumes are low. I guess at the end of the day, on paper at least, the PA speaker makes a lot of sense. I just got sort of beguiled by things like the Berg cabs which sound so awesome for electric bass at least (haven't tried anything else with them).

I guess the wishful thinking part of me wants someone to say (and have it be true lol), that my Mac Mini as a preamp in front of a BQ 500 and a light weight Phil Jones Cab or something novel and portable, can work great for all these different applications. Again, as I type this, that seems absurd. Probably should take the "W" so to speak with the CP12 or the ZLX15p as in all roles, they weren't bad. They just didn't feel "alive." I hate subjective BS terms like that, but I suspect you all know what I mean. Both those PA boxes aren't back breakers and they can be had under $500 used. They're louder than I need for any situation where there's no FOH and will work as monitors for when there is. *Sigh*

 

[E4R104]

I guess the one last thought I had was building a Bill Fitzmaurice designed cab and using a Partsexpress Class D amp. The plans are affordable and seem well thought out and the parts aren't too far away from my budget. I kinda have no excuse as my work has me well equipped to make most things.

Anyone have any thoughts on those designs and that concept in general? Sucks being broke. I'm doing the startup thing, and it's looking up, but right now it's been a couple of years without a pay check and I am really frustrated with my amplification options for this jazz combo I'm really enjoying playing in. It's like my twice a week therapy and it makes me super happy. So I'm jonesing hard for upgrades!

 

[DJ Bebop]

So conceptually, I'm very familiar with loudspeaker design considerations as I've done a few of my own for hi-fi diy audio fun. I don't know a lot about pro sound of guitar / bass gear at the cab / amp / combo level as being able to play with these has always been a little out of budget.

I guess what I don't have a good handle on is the design aspirations of bass cabs. My impression is guitar cabs are more like instruments, with little regard to linearity and other characteristics which are meant to create some semblance of, for lack of a better term, authentic reproduction of a signal. They're a big part of the tone. A PA cab seems as though it should ostensibly be pursuing a more hi-fi style reproduction of a signal right? So what I'm at a loss for here is what degree of coloration is comparatively present on bass separates using cabs with horns and these more modern compact, lightweight class D amps? I know that's a broad question. I may be looking for a swiss army knife and those are usually terrible at lots of different jobs vs being good at one.

I'm working hard on improving my jazz chops and I practice on my EUB with headphones quite a bit. I also practice on my reg DB with no reinforcement playing my back tracks through a pair of Mirage OM12s which throw a big sound stage as their dipoles, so they feel pretty "live" in the room. I'd like to be able to pursue my live sound approach using modeling preamps for guitar and electric bass and various other eq and dynamics processing for the DBs through fx chains in Reaper on the Mac. My hope is to find a balance between something that is almost like a really, really loud monitor for a mix and an amp.

As I type this, I'm realizing this seems pretty unrealistic in terms of an ask. There are so many wild card parameters beyond the amp and cab, like the environment itself being chief amongst them. I dunno, best jack of all trades that doesn't suck horribly at any of them? The budget is tight, but the volumes are low. I guess at the end of the day, on paper at least, the PA speaker makes a lot of sense. I just got sort of beguiled by things like the Berg cabs which sound so awesome for electric bass at least (haven't tried anything else with them).

I guess the wishful thinking part of me wants someone to say (and have it be true lol), that my Mac Mini as a preamp in front of a BQ 500 and a light weight Phil Jones Cab or something novel and portable, can work great for all these different applications. Again, as I type this, that seems absurd. Probably should take the "W" so to speak with the CP12 or the ZLX15p as in all roles, they weren't bad. They just didn't feel "alive." I hate subject BS terms like that, but I suspect you all know what I mean. Both those PA boxes aren't back breakers and they can be had under $500 used. They're louder than I need for any situation where there's no FOH and will work as monitors for when there is. *Sigh*

If that is the way you wanna go. I'd would get either one, CP12 or the ZLX15p, but I'd get a small powered sub to go with whatever top box I got. I use to do this only with old passive top boxes and subs run off of power amps and crossover.

Now I'm running this...


Very FRFR, very powerful, very compact and light. The designer of this system is an engineer with years of building, and running tour-level PA systems, as well as worker for the top bass amp companies.

 

[E4R104]

If that is the way you wanna go. I'd would get either one, CP12 or the ZLX15p, but I'd get a small powered sub to go with whatever top box I got. I use to do this only with old passive top boxes and subs run off of power amps and crossover.

Now I'm running this...
View attachment 5287321

Very FRFR, very powerful, very compact and light.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever for giggles done what I do on occasion and pretend to be a guitar player with it? Perhaps with a Kemper or Helix in front of it (or Fractal or whatever)? Does it do the FRFR thing enough to be serviceable? I've not played through the Subway, but people seem to love 'em, at least for bass!

 

[E4R104]

Something like a fEarful F112 cab with a rack mount preamp and rack power amp would be most ideal for your situation - to the point you could run different preamps for bass or guitar but the same power amp and cab. But that's a pricey setup.

Depends how much volume you need, or how clear you like your tone, but you may have trouble finding an all-in-one solution. Perhaps an older PA cab could be found for cheap, with a horn "volume" control to dial back the highs.

There's a few of the Matrix 112 and 212 on FB marketplace locally for reasonable money (ie could sort of afford one). I know the Fearfuls are a big step-up, but the Matrix with a bass doesn't seem that crazy? Is it?

 

[DJ Bebop]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever for giggles done what I do on occasion and pretended to be a guitar player with it? Perhaps with a Kemper or Helix in front of it (or Fractal or whatever)? Does it do the FRFR thing enough to be serviceable? I've not played through the Subway, but people seem to love 'em, at least for bass!

No, not for guitar but have used mulit-effects units with amp models and modeled effects into this system and found it to be as accurate as playing plugins through my DAW and monitors. Or at least, I think so.

 

[MIMike]

I believe what you want sound and size wise exists…just not for that budget.
An Audio Kinesis Thunderchild driven by a powerful enough head, with a relatively uncolored preamp section, would probably work pretty well but it likely will cost 6 x your budget.

 

[agedhorse]

Here's another perspective… you don't understand the differences, nor what you want compared with what's available on the market, yet you hope to build an amp and cabinet to achieve the unknown.

Perhaps you might better be served by playing a bunch of different amps and cabinets to see what actually suits your needs. You might be surprised.

 

[E4R104]

I have played a number of powered pa cabs, have owned several combos of varying sizes, and tried a number of more widely available heads and cabs (gk, trace Elliot, and others available at my local GC). There are contrasting characteristics with all of the above and merits and detractors to all of them. I am asking for people's experience with using a full range (horn + low freq drivers) cab with a class d amp as a proxy for an frfr. For double bass, bass guitar and regular guitar. I'm not going to buy blind and not asking for advice on a shopping process, just for anecdotal experience if anyone has tried some of the cab amp combinations for similar purposes, and or success / failure stories of attempting a multipurpose rig or some kind. I'm looking for thoughts on what to try before I buy or if this entire process is a waste of time and I really need to invest in multiple solutions. Also, many of the things I want to try aren't easy to find to try, so trying to weed through some options before making road trips to experiment. If I felt I could realistically try and find a great solution without some guidance and help, I wouldn't post it here.

 

[E4R104]

No, not for guitar but have used mulit-effects units with amp models and modeled effects into this system and found it to be as accurate as playing plugins through my DAW and monitors. Or at least, I think so.

That's exactly what I'd like to be able to do. Be able to have a strong corollary between how things sound on my monitors and headphones to use with an actual rig. I know it won't be the same, but being able to get it in the ball park playing at home with headphones and on monitors and being able to get something reasonably close on a rig for practice and small gigs with minimal tweaking fuss (realizing there is always adjustment for the infinite variables present). The ag100d that I'm currently using does this all to some extent, but has a very high noise floor and not a lot of output. I'm going to see if I can find a subway locally to try. Might just be worth the wait to sell if some more gear and keep saving my pennys.

 

[basss]

I think you'll be satisfied with the Ibanez head into the Carvin cabinet. It doesn't sound like you're that picky and on a very tight budget and that rig will make decently loud 'bass' sound. For $250 you won't get much more.

 

[DJ Bebop]

That's exactly what I'd like to be able to do. Be able to have a strong corollary between how things sound on my monitors and headphones to use with an actual rig. I know it won't be the same, but being able to get it in the ball park playing at home with headphones and on monitors and being able to get something reasonably close on a rig for practice and small gigs with minimal tweaking fuss (realizing there is always adjustment for the infinite variables present). The ag100d that I'm currently using does this all to some extent, but has a very high noise floor and not a lot of output. I'm going to see if I can find a subway locally to try. Might just be worth the wait to sell if some more gear and keep saving my pennys.

I can go from the headphone out of the amp, or from the DI from the amp into my DAW or FOH PA, or from the right mic in front of the cabinet into the same and it all sounds just like what you put into it. To my ear.

 

[E4R104]

I think you'll be satisfied with the Ibanez head into the Carvin cabinet. It doesn't sound like you're that picky and on a very tight budget and that rig will make decently loud 'bass' sound. For $250 you won't get much more.

I'm going to try that next. The Promethean head sold but there are a bunch of the Little Backline, Elf and BH250s for $200ish. I can unplug the amplifier section of my ag100d and try it with those. I'm fact, that might salvage the ag100d as it has more power handling than the onboard amp provides and the amp seems to be the weak point. Easy to test! Thanks