So threads like this probably exist, but I need it for myself. I've been trying to get this down and it sounds terrible. I don't feel like I'm improving at all. Have any of you struggled with thumb position vibrato? I feel like I'm the only one in my studio who can't do it. It's jittery and awful and it pisses me off. Have you experienced this? Did you get past it and find that beautiful sound? I need some advice and moral support, because it's hard to get through any of my practice sessions these days without feeling like I need to drink away the pain.
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Double Bass If You Have Conquered Thumb Position Vibrato: HELP!!!
- Thread starter atmanknows1
- Start date
Whenever I keep my thumb down it feels even harder than when I don't. So no, not really. What's really driving me crazy is the motion my arm is supposed to be making. It never feels like I'm getting it right or that I'm in control. I've heard it's like a karate chop, and I suppose that helps but not really. I've also heard to move from the elbow, not to lock up my muscles, that when I'm getting it right my whole arm should be moving, find anchor points etc. I keep my thumb down what will that do? Does it keep my arm in the right position so I can move parallel to the string? Keep my finger from sliding in and out of tune? Ugh, I'm sorry it's just so frustrating.
Look up som cello vibrato lessons on youtube. The technique is pretty much the same everywhere on the bass. Start with the first finger at A or Ab over octave G and roll the finger really slow (60-80 bpm or so). First quarters, then 8ths, triplets then raise the tempo a bit.
Slow diligent practise with the metronome helped me get it. My teacher spent at least 10 or 20 minutes out of every lesson on vibrato for a year or so of my lessons.
As Edvin says, there some good demos on Youtube. Here's just one:
As explained, the thumb gives stability and balance. On the bass, more than the cello, it helps hold the string down. You don't have to press with the thumb, just resting on the string will push the string down. In addition, as I already mentioned, holding your thumb up out of the way breeds tension in the hand. Keeping your thumb down will keep you hand from sliding (intonation) and will also give you an actual hand position which is useful if you have more than one note to play.
I don't know about the karate chop. The only thing about bass playing that resembles my old karate days is when a piece kicks my a**.
Thanks for that video. There are much vibrato videos but there are actually very little videos on thumb position vibrato. This is the first one I see that explains it well. Her first finger knuckle is very loose by the way!
Hang in there man! getting a smooth vibrato and good sound is one of the hardest things to accomplish on a bass. Will take you some years. Thumb position vibrato is much more difficult than normal vibrato because your hand and arm can feel locked. But with good practice eventually you will manage. Just takes time.
atmanknows1,
Along with the preceding advice, I'll also offer this, which comes from my former teacher, Murray Grodner: "If you're having trouble with vibrato, the reason is that you're focusing on the wrong part of the anatomy." (It's hard to say that this is true in your case, without observing your technique; a lesson with an experienced teacher is the ideal solution.)
What Prof. Grodner is saying is that vibrato does NOT originate in the hand, but rather in the arm.
The locus of the undulating motion that creates vibrato is in the upper arm and is only transmitted through the hand and fingers to the instrument. As the cellist in the YouTube vid points out, a nice arch in the hand provides strength to transmit that energy.
Like Edvin said, I wouldn't recommend anchoring the thumb or actually stopping the string with it behind your fingered note, as it will impede the rotation or pivot of the finger on the string. (The string is a line; you can pivot around a single point on that line; however, you can't rotate or pivot on two points on the same line at the same time.)
Hope this is helpful!
Along with the preceding advice, I'll also offer this, which comes from my former teacher, Murray Grodner: "If you're having trouble with vibrato, the reason is that you're focusing on the wrong part of the anatomy." (It's hard to say that this is true in your case, without observing your technique; a lesson with an experienced teacher is the ideal solution.)
What Prof. Grodner is saying is that vibrato does NOT originate in the hand, but rather in the arm.
The locus of the undulating motion that creates vibrato is in the upper arm and is only transmitted through the hand and fingers to the instrument. As the cellist in the YouTube vid points out, a nice arch in the hand provides strength to transmit that energy.
Like Edvin said, I wouldn't recommend anchoring the thumb or actually stopping the string with it behind your fingered note, as it will impede the rotation or pivot of the finger on the string. (The string is a line; you can pivot around a single point on that line; however, you can't rotate or pivot on two points on the same line at the same time.)
Hope this is helpful!
atmanknows1-
Here are a few observations:
1. I would recommend getting used to the thumb staying on the string- it helps the other finger(s) by keeping the string from "pushing back". It helps to have a callus on the side of the thumb, so that the weight of your arm is transmitted onto the string/fingerboard. Aim for a consistent spot on the side of your thumb. (see attachment):
2. My former teacher, (James VanDemark), had me practice what he called the " Rubber Hand Exercise", as a way to loosen the fingers/knuckles/wrist/elbow as an introduction to Thumb Position vibrato. This involved placing the thumb on the harmonic "G" then adding the 1st finger on Ab;2nd finger on A; third finger on Bb. Then, (without bowing), collapse the hand (downward), toward the fingerboard and back "up" to the normal Thumb Position. Do this very slowly at first ( maybe 1 second "down" and 1 second " back "up"). This motion is essential to loosen the components of vibrato - the finger joints/knuckles/wrist/elbow all need to be able to flex ( almost " bounce"). Do this motion (down, then up) repeatedly, while maintaining contact with the string with all 3 fingers and thumb. Next, add the bow - it will sound "awful" - do not concern yourself with "pitch", only flexibility of the left hand.( It should sound like you're "drunk"!). This will help loosen the tension, by getting used to feeling of movement/flexibility in the arm/wrist/knuckles/fingers, while "holding" a note - essential for producing "vibrato".
I realize this exercise does not specifically address the vibrato motion, but for me, it was a real first step in studying/producing vibrato in thumb position.
Good Luck.
Thanks for your time and interest.
He does address some of your concerns, I hope this help
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRMQ-ulb7G-05l8H7Popflg
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRMQ-ulb7G-05l8H7Popflg
- Jan 24, 2002
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I don't mean to offer contradictory advice, but I really don't think the thumb has anything to do with it. You should be able to have a nice vibrato on any finger with or without the thumb contacting the string (unless you're trying to vibrate with your thumb, of course). There are other, very good reasons to leave the thumb on the string. However, I have an easier time isolating the motion of the vibrato itself when I'm not trying to lock my thumb in one place.
You will likely have the easiest time isolating a slow rocking motion in the arm if you focus on your second finger for now. Don't worry about keeping the thumb down, and don't worry about vibrato on the other fingers. Take it one step at a time. Once you understand the motion on one finger, you can begin to transfer that motion to other fingers and other positions.
It's very difficult to address your specific problems without seeing them in action. A short video from several angles would be especially helpful. There are any number of issues which could be getting in your way.
That said, there are a few common problems which might be responsible in this case:
- The orientation of your hand and wrist. The more your wrist can be to parallel with the fingerboard, the more likely any rocking motion you give will be up-and-down the string, rather than side-to-side (which does nothing to bend the pitch). This has another advantage in that it puts your fingers in line with the string -- an obvious plus if you intend to use more than one finger while you're up there.
---- Also think about the wrist's angle: look at the top of your hand when you hold a note in thumb position. Is the wrist below, level to, or above the back of the hand? It should never be below, and you may have an easier time weighting the string if you're slightly above.
- The Shoulder. If your shoulder isn't sitting comfortably on your ribcage, you are tensing muscles which ought to be relaxed. Vibrato is partly about keeping a relaxed, fluid motion. Don't hold tension where it won't assist you.
- Weighting the Left Hand. This is a difficult concept to describe, but absolutely vital nonetheless. There are essentially two ways to hold the string down: with a muscular "squeeze" in the hand and forearm, or with application of arm weight. If your primary means of holding the string is the former, then vibrato becomes immensely difficult. With so much tension in the hand and effort being directed into the string, it isn't likely you will find a fluid vibrato.
As an exercise, try vibrating in a "low" thumb position -- around the heel of the neck (E or F on the G string).
You will likely have the easiest time isolating a slow rocking motion in the arm if you focus on your second finger for now. Don't worry about keeping the thumb down, and don't worry about vibrato on the other fingers. Take it one step at a time. Once you understand the motion on one finger, you can begin to transfer that motion to other fingers and other positions.
It's very difficult to address your specific problems without seeing them in action. A short video from several angles would be especially helpful. There are any number of issues which could be getting in your way.
That said, there are a few common problems which might be responsible in this case:
- The orientation of your hand and wrist. The more your wrist can be to parallel with the fingerboard, the more likely any rocking motion you give will be up-and-down the string, rather than side-to-side (which does nothing to bend the pitch). This has another advantage in that it puts your fingers in line with the string -- an obvious plus if you intend to use more than one finger while you're up there.
---- Also think about the wrist's angle: look at the top of your hand when you hold a note in thumb position. Is the wrist below, level to, or above the back of the hand? It should never be below, and you may have an easier time weighting the string if you're slightly above.
- The Shoulder. If your shoulder isn't sitting comfortably on your ribcage, you are tensing muscles which ought to be relaxed. Vibrato is partly about keeping a relaxed, fluid motion. Don't hold tension where it won't assist you.
- Weighting the Left Hand. This is a difficult concept to describe, but absolutely vital nonetheless. There are essentially two ways to hold the string down: with a muscular "squeeze" in the hand and forearm, or with application of arm weight. If your primary means of holding the string is the former, then vibrato becomes immensely difficult. With so much tension in the hand and effort being directed into the string, it isn't likely you will find a fluid vibrato.
As an exercise, try vibrating in a "low" thumb position -- around the heel of the neck (E or F on the G string).
Fergus Curry started a thread on this topic, Vibrato in High Positions,dated 04-03-2009, that is worth checking out on Page 24.
I'll stick by what I said then.
DP
I'll stick by what I said then.
DP
I am pretty much with Cannon. If you have a good, controlled vibrato in the low register it is really just a matter of getting comfortable enough in TP to do it there. I lift my thumb when I vibrate other fingers.
Cool video. It is raining and I am off so I am going to practice this. I think if there are a few "legit" way to do it it is best to learn them all.
As Edvin says, there some good demos on Youtube. Here's just one:
As explained, the thumb gives stability and balance. On the bass, more than the cello, it helps hold the string down. You don't have to press with the thumb, just resting on the string will push the string down. In addition, as I already mentioned, holding your thumb up out of the way breeds tension in the hand. Keeping your thumb down will keep you hand from sliding (intonation) and will also give you an actual hand position which is useful if you have more than one note to play.
I don't know about the karate chop. The only thing about bass playing that resembles my old karate days is when a piece kicks my a**.
In about 30 seconds I was able to get the same vibrato with my thumb in contact. I don't think it gives you a better or worse vibrato, what it seems to do is stabilize your position.
There's also the "debate" of where to put your thumb. I had one teacher advise me to keep it as close to the first finger as possible for "stability", then I had another advise me to have it 1 tone below your first finger "for stability", and then another teacher say that it doesn't really matter, and that you should be used to having it a semitone and a tone away from the first finger so you can use petracchi's higher "positions" if you want to.
my only advice to anyone working up there is that it won't get any better unless you practice up there: Include it in your scales, look into Boardwalkin', etc. Also, I recommend that people assume thumb position ("Assume the position!!!"), as if you're going to play, then wait there for about 1 minute without moving. if you're holding tension, your body will tell you where, and you'll conciously, or subconciously move your body to adjust into comfort ( I stole that from a cellist).
eerbrev
This sums it all. Seems like every player/teacher has their own 'method'. There is not one method. You should try all and see what suits your physics the best.
Also agree with damonsmith. It doesn't really makes a huge difference for your vibrato if your thumb floats above the string or if your thumb stays on the string. Especially in the very high thumb position (around high G and further) it is sometimes hard to keep your thumb on the string. On these very high notes it is especially challenging to have a smooth vibrato.
