improving diminished and augmented vocab

[PrimitiveMan]

Hi all,

I have trying to improve my fluency when playing over diminished and augmented chords. I feel like walking over these chords is no problem, I know my arpeggios and inversions and just use those chord tones with some passing notes (still plenty of room to improve but I have some proficiency). But when it comes to soloing I don't feel the same freedom with dim and aug chords as I do with others. I have been shedding diminished scales as well as harmonic and melodic minor modes which has been helping. I am sure this will continue to help as they become more natural.

But my question really is if you have any tips or recommendations for stuff to transcribe to improve playing melodically over dim and aug chords.

Thanks

 

[Don Kasper]

I have been shedding diminished scales

Hi picnic01,
Just wondering - can you spell for me the notes of a B diminished scale (for instance?)...or any other Diminished Scale?
I have been very interested in how students approach this scale - (I'm OLD and am still teaching the YOUNGs - I am not looking to criticize you, only see where you are at in your journey of scales and chords.)
Thank You,
Don Kasper (I spend most of my time on the DB side of TB.)
Thanks.

 

[PrimitiveMan]

Hi picnic01,
Just wondering - can you spell for me the notes of a B diminished scale (for instance?)...or any other Diminished Scale?
I have been very interested in how students approach this scale - (I'm OLD and am still teaching the YOUNGs - I am not looking to criticize you, only see where you are at in your journey of scales and chords.)
Thank You,
Don Kasper (I spend most of my time on the DB side of TB.)
Thanks.

Thanks for your response Don

I am using the half/whole and whole/half diminished scales, as well as the super locrian (harmonic minor starting from the 7th).

B half/whole- B, C, D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, A, B
B whole/half- B, Db, D, E, F, G, Ab, Bb, B
B super locrian- B, C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B

I am mostly self taught but have had lessons from some great jazz players here and there over the last 20 years. But there are plenty of holes in my understanding. I am pretty new to using the diminished scales, before I would just use the super locrian only if I had to play something diminished and scale based

 

[PrimitiveMan]

I should add I am playing whole tone scale for aug chords also

 

[Don Kasper]

Thanks for your response Don

I am using the half/whole and whole/half diminished scales, as well as the super locrian (harmonic minor starting from the 7th).

B half/whole- B, C, D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, A, B
B whole/half- B, Db, D, E, F, G, Ab, Bb, B
B super locrian- B, C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B

I am mostly self taught but have had lessons from some great jazz players here and there over the last 20 years. But there are plenty of holes in my understanding. I am pretty new to using the diminished scales, before I would just use the super locrian only if I had to play something diminished and scale based

Hi picnic,
Yes -
The B Whole/Half is the most supportive scale for a Bdim7 chord.
You are on the right track, but I have some thoughts:
For the B half/whole - this scale works best supporting the chord - B7b9,#9,#11,13. (Not a Bdim7 chord.) I was taught to call this an "Inverted Diminished Scale", because it starts with a Half-Step.
For the B super locrian - (Did you mean - B, C, D, Eb, F, G, A, B ???) - this scale (also known as the Altered Scale), works best supporting the chord - B7,b9,#9,#11, b13. (Not a Bdim7 chord.)
I hear/play/teach these 3 scales as 3 separate "animals" with different "appetites", so to speak. I don't recommend interchanging them with one another, but rather, "hear" how each supports the chord that may be sounding.
These are my approaches and opinions - others may have different responses.
IMO/IME, of course.
My suggestion is to explore these scales and chords at a keyboard, or take a lesson or two with a (jazz...) pianist to (see & ) hear how these scales and chords interact.
Thanks for your time and interest and civility. I appreciate all 3.
Good Luck.

 

[PrimitiveMan]

Thanks again Don.

As usual the answer is just keep shedding this stuff until it becomes familiar. I am so used to major and minor scales that these other ones just feel less smooth in the moment.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Hi all,

I have trying to improve my fluency when playing over diminished and augmented chords. I feel like walking over these chords is no problem, I know my arpeggios and inversions and just use those chord tones with some passing notes (still plenty of room to improve but I have some proficiency). But when it comes to soloing I don't feel the same freedom with dim and aug chords as I do with others. I have been shedding diminished scales as well as harmonic and melodic minor modes which has been helping. I am sure this will continue to help as they become more natural.

But my question really is if you have any tips or recommendations for stuff to transcribe to improve playing melodically over dim and aug chords.

Thanks

Somewhat of a coincidence, I'm working on diminished scales also. Just started a week ago. After looking it all over, I've decided to only focus on the half/whole diminished for now and worry about the other symmetrical scales later so I can really get into making it useful and not scattering my brain too much. There are a lot of resources out there, but I'm mostly working from information related to sax players currently, since they tend to approach things from every possible angle.

Definitely a different way of thinking from the major scales or even melodic minor.

 

[PrimitiveMan]

Somewhat of a coincidence, I'm working on diminished scales also. Just started a week ago. After looking it all over, I've decided to only focus on the half/whole diminished for now and worry about the other symmetrical scales later so I can really get into making it useful and not scattering my brain too much. There are a lot of resources out there, but I'm mostly working from information related to sax players currently, since they tend to approach things from every possible angle.

Definitely a different way of thinking from the major scales or even melodic minor.

Oh cool

What resources are you using?

Definitely a different way of thinking!

 

[Spin Doctor]

Oh cool

What resources are you using?

Definitely a different way of thinking!

I bought the PDF that's associated with this video. The spoiler is that you really don't need to buy the book since you can just transpose the exercises to other keys, but I don't mind supporting musicians. I would think that instruments that have different fingerings for every key will likely need to have the entire book written out.

I'm using this to get the fingerings and the sound of it down, then I plan to learn the vocabulary and using it over chord changes.

The exercises start around the 5 minute mark.

 

[PrimitiveMan]

I bought the PDF that's associated with this video. The spoiler is that you really don't need to buy the book since you can just transpose the exercises to other keys, but I don't mind supporting musicians. Instruments that have different fingerings for every key will likely need to have the entire book written out. I'm using this to get the fingerings and the sound of it down, then I plan to learn the vocabulary and using it over chord changes.

Thanks, I'll check it out!

 

[Spin Doctor]

Thanks, I'll check it out!

Another thing I plan to check out is building diminished material using "major" triads. I saw a video where John Pattitucci talked about using stacked major triads because then it doesn't sound like you're "trying" to play diminished. He gave the impression that using strictly diminished material was a corny way of doing it. So I ran across this video of a guitarist who gives good lessons and he describes the technique. But this is stuff to work on later on.

 

[PrimitiveMan]

Another thing I plan to check out is building diminished material using "major" triads. I saw a video where John Pattitucci talked about using stacked major triads because then it doesn't sound like you're "trying" to play diminished. He gave the impression that using strictly diminished material was a corny way of doing it. So I ran across this video of a guitarist who gives good lessons and he describes the technique. But this is stuff to work on later on.

That's pretty hip

 

[IamGroot]

My $0.02 worth.

Chad on sax and Jens Larsen on guitar are some of the best on the internet. I have been using their material for over a year and feel they really help.

There is nothing that I am aware of on bass that comes close for jazz improv.

Jens is a super nice person. When he teaches, he sometimes drops little gems casually in the conversation that are really worth noting and following up on.

 

[Spin Doctor]

That's pretty hip

Since I started working on this stuff and transcribing solos, I'm hearing the half/whole diminished scale everywhere.

 

[Groove Master]

The beauty of those kind of scales is the symmetry. So you can transpose all your patterns using always the same fingerings inside the same scale