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Improvizing without harmony support

A

AndyMopley

Nov 30, 2024
177
179
68
Sydney AU
#1
I think it is fair to say that for bass players, when improvizing, we're pretty much on our own (most of the times, unless you arrange for piano / or chord instrument to comp along).
Indeed, the majority of bass specific instructions, have a backing track, which makes the solos sound a lot better.

However, if a tune is unfamiliar, it then becomes a case of making the best of what we can do. This may include of course, simply continuing to play a pattern or staying out of soloing altogether. Nothing particlularly wrong wih this, if that is what floats your boat.

But for those that do want to get better at improvising, specifically jazz, does anyone know of specific instructions relating to how not to lose the form, or even simply outlining the chord changes, without getting lost? I realize that knowing the tune is key, but when you are seeing a chart for the fist time, and you are trying to play a solo, without backing, what are some of the things you can do to still keep the solo interesting and not mechanical? And just to share what I am doing - a) learn a (2 or 4 or 8 bars) phrase and apply to a tune; b) work with a metronome that allows a set numbers of bars to be muted so to develop a "feel"; like trading fours; c) offset a phrase (say starting on a 2 and) so (the phrase) carries across barlines. I am also avoiding the use of backing tracks, to hear (in isolation) just how musical I can make the solo. It's getting there, slowly.

There is some material here:
at the 7:00 mark which addresses some of what I am talking about.

I won't dwell on the "anxiety" aspect of suddenly being under the spotlight ;-) This one overcomes with confidence (and practice!)

Any (further) input welcomed. Not looking for a silver bullet, this is a life long journey.
 
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#2
There is a far easier solution: Talk to the band. Tell the other musicians to comp, outline the chords, play the changes, whatever the hell you have to say to keep them from going to the bar during your solo.

I hear so many bass players complain about this and when you ask, 99% of them have never actually told others HOW to support a bass solo. If you want it then ask for it. If your bandmates don't understand that's on you, not them.

Hell, I've hosted hundreds of jams and sat in with bands and even then, it's not hard to mime or shout out "Hey, play the chords" at the start of your solo. Even total strangers will get it most of the time if you use your voice.
 
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#3
With a bit of study, you shouldn't really need prep time or accompaniment to keep your place soloing over 12 bar blues. The changes are simple and slow. So you just need to learn to hear the changes and develop a blues vocabulary.

While I generally consider major blues pretty simple, there is some common variations in the harmonic structure you need to learn. I pretty much treat this variation as chord substitution. So I might drag the band through different harmonic variations during the same tune. You can also learn and use a variety of turn arounds.

I don't have much experience playing minor blues.

I also don't have much luck being able to play through jazz swing standards from memory, as the harmonic structure tends to be a lot more complex. There are usually a couple of changes where I tend to loose the root movement. I can work the tunes up to play from memory, but it's not something I have done enough to get good at it.

Regarding the harmony and time dropping out during the bass solo...yes this is unfortunately prevalent. I think it's probably a holdover from the days when upright players did the job without an amp. In order to hear the bass solo, everyone had to get out of the way. People are still taught to do this, even though it is no longer necessary.

In order to pull it off, you really have to know what your doing and have something to say. Christian McBride doesn't seem to have a problem with it.


I used to play jazz trio on a regular basis and was expected to carry my weight with solos. Unfortunately I am no Christian McBride, so if the time are harmony dropped things could get messy. It always required a conversation or two whenever a new rhythm player sat in. I had to tell them what I wanted. For context, we played standard repertoire out the Real Book, and rarely called songs that anyone didn't know. If we did call a new tune and it was somewhat challenging, we would delay playing till the next gig, so people had an opportunity to get it under their fingers.
 
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#4
Worth looking over at the DB side, just because there's an active thread on this topic:

Huy Nguyen

Double Bass Thread 'How do YOU want the pianist to comp on your solo?'

I had a interesting Q come up recently playing duo with a pianist. He tried to walk under my solo with the piano and it was little too much and so when asked how I wanted it done, i found it was a really good question i hadn't thought about. I see plenty of vids of piano players asking eachother how they should comp for a bass solo but not often actually ASKING THE BASSPLAYER what he wants? So what say you? How do you want to be comped by another instrument?

1) How much should they play?
2) How much should they interact with your solo?
3) If they were to walk underneath your solo...
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#7
I'm doing some improvisation in a blues setting. It is going well, but I actually find that others don't give you enough space or just aren't used to accompanying a bass solo, as a result it's a bit of a mess.

In a blues or even jazz for that matter I'm holding down the groove, not adding fills or screwing around with synchronization when someone else is soloing. For some reason, the bass solo becomes a free for all where I'm at. Part of the problem is the drummer, they hear some space and that means add a fill, then the guitar player mixes it up a bit. It does work sometimes, but that is rare. I'm dreading the second guitar player that shows up every once in a while why can't they just stop playing or accompany a soloist? The guitar and drums... accompanying... lose the form they are screwing around so much.

I solo with a backing track and it sounds good because the accompanying is more predictable or just supporting.

I'm going to record some sessions on my phone to get an idea of what is happening. I'll give it another few weeks to see if things improve first though.
 
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#9
rogerb said:
I'm doing some improvisation in a blues setting. It is going well, but I actually find that others don't give you enough space or just aren't used to accompanying a bass solo, as a result it's a bit of a mess.

In a blues or even jazz for that matter I'm holding down the groove, not adding fills or screwing around with synchronization when someone else is soloing. For some reason, the bass solo becomes a free for all where I'm at. Part of the problem is the drummer, they hear some space and that means add a fill, then the guitar player mixes it up a bit. It does work sometimes, but that is rare. I'm dreading the second guitar player that shows up every once in a while why can't they just stop playing or accompany a soloist? The guitar and drums... accompanying... lose the form they are screwing around so much.

I solo with a backing track and it sounds good because the accompanying is more predictable or just supporting.

I'm going to record some sessions on my phone to get an idea of what is happening. I'll give it another few weeks to see if things improve first though.
Click to expand...


When soloing with real people, good players will comp and also have a dialogue with you. The dialogue is sort of a call response process. You play something and someone else may extend the idee or respond with a complementary idea. However, the dialogue is generally not continuous. It should enhance your solo rather than get it in the way.
 
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#10
AndyMopley said:
Yes, thanks, but how to approach when you are seeing the chart for the first time?
Click to expand...


I think the only problem is your expectations are unrealistic (for now).

If you don't know the song, then you probably shouldn't solo--unless it's a simple song. Some people can pull it off, but most can't. For those who can pull it off, the solo may still suck....I have heard it many times.

You are on a musical journey. One of the stops on that journey may be to solo over new changes. There is no silver bullet. You have to continue along your path. Maybe someday you will get there and maybe you won't.

As I tried to imply earlier, the ability to do this is somewhat dependent on the complexity of the music. If the song has a common chord progress that you know, then it should be no problem. This is why I say it should be reasonably achievable with something like 12 bar blues. If for example if you know "So What" (Miles Davis); then also know "Impressions (John Coltrane). They are the same changes and form.


With complex/advance changes it's way more challenging. However I think this is how a serious player with exceptional talent and skill could do it:​
Essentially the number of chord changes you would expect to hear is finite. So you can learn and memorize a significant proportion of the possibilities. Some players use a number system and can hear the changes to a new song once or twice and know the harmony. They don't necessarily learn new changes, they recognize patterns they already know. If the song they are playing has three sections, they may associate each section with a different song. Or maybe one section will be comprised of sections from two songs. Once all three sections are identified, the player pretty much knows the song.

I had a long successful career. While I observed this process in some players, my perception is I don't have all of the mental attributes to pull it off. I believe I am of above average intelligence overall; so I can understand how it works. But I feel some of my memory processes may be below average. In particular, I feel my working memory and short term memory functions are insufficient. Additionally I have never really learned the necessary number system that serves as a foundation for this approach.

This is not something my job required. I can learn/memorize changes for most cover songs by ear. For jazz I typically read a lead sheet. For classical I read standard notation.

I do know some of the more basic jazz standards by ear well enough to fill my roll as bassist. I could solo over some of them. For others, I would feel more comfortable with a lead sheet in front of me.
 
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#11
AndyMopley said:
Yes, thanks, but how to approach when you are seeing the chart for the first time?
Click to expand...
I missed the part of the OP about "unfamiliar material"

it's a vocabulary issue at heart. You have to fallback on stylistic knowledge, including your own internal repertoire.
You gotta know a 32 bar AABA Or the rhythm changes of blues variations or all flavors of ii-V at a glance
and have a toolbox of responses to familiar changes
The more you learn the language the easier navigating a style becomes
If you regularly encounter unfamiliar material perhaps you need to hit the real / fake books
If jazz is the goal you simply gotta learn, know and recognize the standards

There are arguably a lot of standards
wikipedia lists roughly 1300
jazzstudies.us charts over 1400

But there is also, I just discovered, standardrepertoire.com
which has a statistically backed, consolidated list of around 200
And also a spotify playlist of the same tunes
So with a Jazz goal I'd have that playlist on all he time and let my ears soak in the vocabulary.
(assuming you know enough of the theory to deduce worthy note choices)

Also if you pick a representative piece like I Got Rhythm you can grow your vocabulary very deliberately by following Ed Fuqua's excellent advice for really learning the tune

you could also fall back on The Lick
 
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#13
Try these approaches or combine

Rhythmic - groove and variations of the groove - in the case of McBride, notice how he does finger tremolos 16th to 32nd and triplet variation but he is at times only playing a note or two.
Dynamics - volume and timbre changes
Chordal - Just chord tones and invert and rehash
Melodic - playing the head or variations of it
Melodic - chordal - sub melodies using chord tones as anchors
Melodic ( Scalar) -- stay in one mode or adhere to chord changes.
Melodic chordal with substitutions - this is where tritone subs and extended voicing come in. This is where it feels like you are playing outside
Off script -- depart from any semblance to the tune or groove or even genre and then resolve back

Listen to saxophone players specially when they play sans piano. Best example is my one and only love by Michael Brecker. By the time the pianist comes in we already are informed of the Chordal, Scalar and Melodic structure of the tune


 
#14
For example try these ideas for a song in Dmaj7

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