agree 100%
I the case where the label pays the producer/band then it's another story ......
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In all actuality, how much does your tone matter?
- Thread starter capnsandwich
- Start date
I the case where the label pays the producer/band then it's another story ......
This is a self-produced CD but we have a guy that's kind of co-producing this for us. He's got experience and is a friend of the songwriter. They're both buds and the songwriter trusts him 100%, except for this little hang up with the bass tone. I don't want to interfere with their friendship but I DON'T WANT MY BASS SOUNDING LIKE THAT!!!
I'm torn. I guess it could grow on me but still, I like the original tone the songwriter and I agreed upon.
- Sep 4, 2010
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- Disclosures
- Endorsing: Martin Keith Guitars
If I am a sideperson on someone elses project and not getting paid, I have all the right in the world to demand the tone I want, because I need to be happy with it. The person whose project this is (the songwriter, if I get this correctly) needs to take his/her responsibility here. Either pay me for my time/effort and then he can do with the part what he/she wants, (ditch it, for example) -whatever. Or not pay me, which in effect makes me a stockholder with a final say in the end result = make it sound the way I want it.
This is why I always pay people at least something, when it's my project, friends or no friends. Makes life a lot easier.
This is why I always pay people at least something, when it's my project, friends or no friends. Makes life a lot easier.
well, tone depends, for me, on how you play, how you attack the strings, etc etc...
but also on strings, amp, wow, many aspects,
but also on strings, amp, wow, many aspects,
i never get the tone i want on records either ! i wish i had just one record that sounds like my amp ! johnny a. staind
Sorry to add this:
Maybe it's good for us to contemplating on this before we rant about "our sound doesn't coming thru the record" :
#Are we sure that we are not the only person who think that our sound is good and best suit for the record?
#Are the decision maker(s) in the record production (producer or engineer) really that bad in recognizing what bass tone is good/bad? Are they really worse than us at that?
#Aren't we subjectively see the case only from our perspective as bassist who play in that record? Or have we try to see it from the bigger perspective (song) ?
#Are we working with the right person?
Just my 2 cents.
Maybe it's good for us to contemplating on this before we rant about "our sound doesn't coming thru the record" :
#Are we sure that we are not the only person who think that our sound is good and best suit for the record?
#Are the decision maker(s) in the record production (producer or engineer) really that bad in recognizing what bass tone is good/bad? Are they really worse than us at that?
#Aren't we subjectively see the case only from our perspective as bassist who play in that record? Or have we try to see it from the bigger perspective (song) ?
#Are we working with the right person?
Just my 2 cents.
As far as I know, the songwriter, drummer, keys, and lead guitarist love my tone. I actually had a hard time with it at first but it kind of grew on me and the head cheese is very pleased about what I can get from a Sansamp BDDI through a GK MB212.
Bad? No. Wanting it to sound cookie cutter like everything else on the radio? Yes. They're used to a certain standard that makes their jobs easier but they're also set in their ways and need to be a little more open-minded, especially when they're not the ones paying for it.
Both. My band mates and I are all together on this.
In some aspects, yes. In others, no. These guys know what they're doing but kind of know it "too much."
I've gone the route of seeking great tone. It works great if you're playing bars with no PA support for the bass and no soundman.
Once you're going through the PA and someone else is running sound, they're tailoring your sound to their liking. And now that I'm doing in ears wherever possible, and even my amp (when I briing one) is just for the benefit of everyone on stage who doesn't have inears, it really doesn't matter. Nobody else cares. I get a good tone in my ears, I'm happy. The rest is out of my control.
And truth be told, maybe "my tone" doesn't work in a band context, maybe I'm biased. I can't hear what it sounds like out front, so I'll never know if its what I like, or not. So it ultimately doesn't matter. Its out of my control. I've found peace.
Wish I hadn't spent all that money on good equipment to get "my tone" before I found that peace...
Randy
Once you're going through the PA and someone else is running sound, they're tailoring your sound to their liking. And now that I'm doing in ears wherever possible, and even my amp (when I briing one) is just for the benefit of everyone on stage who doesn't have inears, it really doesn't matter. Nobody else cares. I get a good tone in my ears, I'm happy. The rest is out of my control.
And truth be told, maybe "my tone" doesn't work in a band context, maybe I'm biased. I can't hear what it sounds like out front, so I'll never know if its what I like, or not. So it ultimately doesn't matter. Its out of my control. I've found peace.
Wish I hadn't spent all that money on good equipment to get "my tone" before I found that peace...
Randy
I haven't done any recording in a "studio with an engineer" scenario for a while now, but I have done several recording sessions with five different bands across several genres. All of the bands concerned were very happy with the sound of my Ric - especially the originals band where I was effectively the band leader and joint songwriter. What I was less happy with, was that in almost every case the engineer was doing his best to make my carefully honed Ric tone sound as generic as possible. In the case of the originals band I was talking about I was also paying for the studio time, so as you can imagine it led to toe-to-toe 'discussions' with the engineer.
On a recording, the tone is there for all time and it does matter, there are many examples (again across many genres) where the bassline and the tone makes the song.
Live, I don't thnk it matters so much (unless you are Chris Squire, Geddy or somebody where half the audience will have turned up expecting to hear a distinctive bass tone).
In a live context, especially for the bar bands I play in now, the audience neither know or care about bass tone. Hiowever, I think even the least musical audience member can tell whether the band is tight or playing sloppily and that most often boils down to whether the bassist and drummer are working as a unit. As others have said, if I've got a good tone that inspires me in a live situation, I enjoy myself more and play better so the audience wins if I've got a good tone even if they don't realise why
On a recording, the tone is there for all time and it does matter, there are many examples (again across many genres) where the bassline and the tone makes the song.
Live, I don't thnk it matters so much (unless you are Chris Squire, Geddy or somebody where half the audience will have turned up expecting to hear a distinctive bass tone).
In a live context, especially for the bar bands I play in now, the audience neither know or care about bass tone. Hiowever, I think even the least musical audience member can tell whether the band is tight or playing sloppily and that most often boils down to whether the bassist and drummer are working as a unit. As others have said, if I've got a good tone that inspires me in a live situation, I enjoy myself more and play better so the audience wins if I've got a good tone even if they don't realise why
That's the thing. A producer can better give the customer what he wants if he starts with clean bass tone. From that starting point you can do anything, but if you start dirty it's much harder to backtrack and make adjustments.
rockstarbassist
Inactive
A lot, depending on the song. I help write/arrange/produce all our stuff, so... I don't "take orders" like a lot of folks.
What, is he scared to have TWO channels for the bass? DI and a mic'ed cab? That's pretty standard practice. Seriously, getting a nice dirty tone is not that difficult. Although the low end is the hardest part to mix, the engineer should not be so intransigent, particularly when everyone in the band is telling him the same thing.
If the band is yours and I mean you are the leader, composer and producer then you can have total control not only in your tone but in almost everything. But if you are a hired gun or play in a band that is being produced by somebody else then there is not much you can do about ''your tone'' , it is all about the band and the music.
I've been the engineer on the last few projects I recorded bass for, so I was already thinking about the sound I wanted in the mix and how to achieve it (separate from whatever my live rig is/was). Previous to that whenever I went into a studio to record I came in with a goal for the bass tone in the mix and expressed it to the engineer and worked with them to get as close to that goal as possible, instead of just taking the "this is my gear, this is my sound, set up a mic and capture it" approach that I've noticed a lot of bassists who have put time and thought into their rig take. Most of the time that has meant not using my live rig at all or at the very least doing a lot of work on a separate DI track to get it to sound on record the way I perceive it sounds when I'm playing.
Psychoacoustics is a subject most good engineers are aware of and musicians would benefit from learning a bit about it as well. I think if you go into a recording project with a sound in your head and work towards that it comes out a lot more satisfying and a lot less emotionally draining that just plugging in your rig and tearing your hair out trying to make it sound in the mix the way you think it sounds on stage.
Psychoacoustics is a subject most good engineers are aware of and musicians would benefit from learning a bit about it as well. I think if you go into a recording project with a sound in your head and work towards that it comes out a lot more satisfying and a lot less emotionally draining that just plugging in your rig and tearing your hair out trying to make it sound in the mix the way you think it sounds on stage.
Johnny thats crazy to hear that even from your perspective (alot farther along than most of us will ever get) you still have the same problem.
If the guys helping you record the songs are not listening to ANYBODY about the tones you are trying to get; take your business elsewhere.
I got a chance to record some bass lines with a producer once and had a lot of fun doing so. He listened to me 100% and helped me get whatever tone I wanted. He let me decide if the bass line was too loud and/or what was sticking out in the tracks too much. Several times, I told him to turn down my bass line so I would not interfere with everyone so much. I told him I wanted to do the Lynyrd Skynyrd approach to songs - you can hear everybody play and can hear the bass really well.
In the end though, I did not get the exact tones I wanted, but I got variations of them that sounded really cool on the songs. He even did two channels for me on certain songs to get the low, clean tone going and the distorted channel roaring.
Maybe I am more willing to compromise on my tone than most, but as long as people can tell what I am doing, it's cool. The bass tones I have a problem with - when the bassist plays with his fingers or pick and you can not tell the difference. Or when the bass player switches to any other techniques and you can barely tell what he is doing. That is when it bugs me.
Bass tone does matter - a good bass tone makes music more enjoyable, a bad bass tone (boomy with no definition when the music needs less low end) can make bands sound terrible. It will literally fatigue your ears to listen to awful bass tones kill a song - for the audience too! A fantastic bass tone (especially in an original band) makes the music even more special to listen too.
I got a chance to record some bass lines with a producer once and had a lot of fun doing so. He listened to me 100% and helped me get whatever tone I wanted. He let me decide if the bass line was too loud and/or what was sticking out in the tracks too much. Several times, I told him to turn down my bass line so I would not interfere with everyone so much. I told him I wanted to do the Lynyrd Skynyrd approach to songs - you can hear everybody play and can hear the bass really well.
In the end though, I did not get the exact tones I wanted, but I got variations of them that sounded really cool on the songs. He even did two channels for me on certain songs to get the low, clean tone going and the distorted channel roaring.
Maybe I am more willing to compromise on my tone than most, but as long as people can tell what I am doing, it's cool. The bass tones I have a problem with - when the bassist plays with his fingers or pick and you can not tell the difference. Or when the bass player switches to any other techniques and you can barely tell what he is doing. That is when it bugs me.
Bass tone does matter - a good bass tone makes music more enjoyable, a bad bass tone (boomy with no definition when the music needs less low end) can make bands sound terrible. It will literally fatigue your ears to listen to awful bass tones kill a song - for the audience too! A fantastic bass tone (especially in an original band) makes the music even more special to listen too.
As a few others have wisely said:
1. Whoever is paying the bill gets the final say (or is, at least, the person who you should be making your pitch to).
If you've agreed with that person on your tone, and the engineer doesn't follow your wishes, or at least explain why a different tone would mix better, you should consider taking your future business elsewhere.
2. I have a live tone which I really like. But when we record I do it 'clean', and we make the adjustments later. As others have pointed out, it's much easier to tweak and experiment with a clean track.
As faulknersj pointed out, this is probably where the engineer is coming from - and it's understandable. But not listening to the band/person paying the bill is not good practice (imo).
Also, as paganjack mentioned, recording mic'd AND a DI into separate channels simultaneously is a good and easy approach, and something that I've done before (and been happy with).
Anyway, I think the bottom line is: if the band wants a certain sound, and is paying for it, that's the sound they should get (best practices be damned).
-k
1. Whoever is paying the bill gets the final say (or is, at least, the person who you should be making your pitch to).
If you've agreed with that person on your tone, and the engineer doesn't follow your wishes, or at least explain why a different tone would mix better, you should consider taking your future business elsewhere.
2. I have a live tone which I really like. But when we record I do it 'clean', and we make the adjustments later. As others have pointed out, it's much easier to tweak and experiment with a clean track.
As faulknersj pointed out, this is probably where the engineer is coming from - and it's understandable. But not listening to the band/person paying the bill is not good practice (imo).
Also, as paganjack mentioned, recording mic'd AND a DI into separate channels simultaneously is a good and easy approach, and something that I've done before (and been happy with).
Anyway, I think the bottom line is: if the band wants a certain sound, and is paying for it, that's the sound they should get (best practices be damned).
-k
