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Double Bass Interface? Mics? Zoom? What gear do I need to record upright w/ jazz quartet
- Thread starter Richard Simon
- Start date
Keep in mind that for every other band member there is an audio connection going in (when not using a server).
My MBP 4,1 (C2D 2-kernel Pernyn processor, 2.5 GHz) were at the limit with six other players.
And the same stream goes out to the other players, but if it is not one stream with several destinations, it would be one stream for every player, so about the same amount that goes in.
BTW, a wired Ethernet connection is best, but the 5 GHz WLAN might be useable with just a bit more delay (if no one else uses that channel).
The 2.4 GHz WLAN is completely unusable. Too much traffic and too much delay anyway.
My MBP 4,1 (C2D 2-kernel Pernyn processor, 2.5 GHz) were at the limit with six other players.
And the same stream goes out to the other players, but if it is not one stream with several destinations, it would be one stream for every player, so about the same amount that goes in.
BTW, a wired Ethernet connection is best, but the 5 GHz WLAN might be useable with just a bit more delay (if no one else uses that channel).
The 2.4 GHz WLAN is completely unusable. Too much traffic and too much delay anyway.
True. I just got AT&T Fiber (marketed as gigabit down and up) and said goodbye to copper coax (Spectrum). Downloads are not noticeably faster but uploads are WAY faster.
I am using zoom in a trio, we all live within 20 km I suppose. We make sure to use 'original sound' (ie no automatic echo cancellation, background noise suppression, etc). Latency is still a major issue, and tempos are varied by the intervening hardware / software / firmware. We all use wifi, which is affected by radio noise / neighbours using wifi...
So the process is more a social one, and sharing new musical ideas while we cannot perform together.
I am still waiting for a quantum entanglement solution, but I guess the lockdown will be over by then.
So the process is more a social one, and sharing new musical ideas while we cannot perform together.
I am still waiting for a quantum entanglement solution, but I guess the lockdown will be over by then.
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Thank you. That sounds pretty authoritative.
I just picked up a book on Albert Einstein, but by the time I finish reading it, the pandemic might be history.
So for anyone else listening: is there "anything beyond that" for recording a jazz quartet?
Hope springs eternal.
Is it mandatory to be playing live? The projects I've done recently are all recorded one at a time -to address this very thing. Usually layer drums, bass, keys/ Guit, horns.. everyone uses their interface and records a separate track while listening to what's been layed down ahead of them on headphones. Someone then does a master mix; video all recorded Via zoom or phone camera and synced up.
IMHO nothing wrong with doing multiple rounds of recordings, so all players have a chance to respond to the music. Start by making a scratch track, and then come back an lay down the real deal.
So,
Thanks for all the input. The upshot is that this won't/can't happen in real time.
The ensemble that wants to record has players in NY, NM and CA.
Chances are some will have Spectrum and others A T & T.
Presumably hard-wired internet will function better than wi-fi - Y/N?
Here's my AARP-member take on what to do:
The pianist should count off a tempo, play an intro, and record a predetermined number of choruses, including his solo.
Once his track is finished, he'll send it to the drummer and this-here bass player, each of whom "responds" to the piano track by laying down his own track.*
An engineer would receive the rhythm section tracks, mix them and send it to the sax player.
Is that anywhere close to a workable procedure?
*Bass player uses a MacBook Pro, circa 2013, iOs 10.13.3 (Catalina). Will that do the job?
- Would need an Interface, yes? I don't double on Electric, so this would be for upright only. Who's found one to recommend?
- Would I need a microphone, and if so, whose?
- Or would a Lifeline pickup suffice? Or, would results be better via a Schertler p/u, which has that little mic embedded in cork that slides into the bass-side loop of the bridge?
- Should I plan to wear only half a headset so I can hear the Piano track in one ear and the bass in the room while I record? Or should I wear both cans because the bass signal will flow through the interface and merge with the piano?
I don't want to be booted off the project, so I hope to rise to the demands of the process by acquiring the necessary equipment. Sincerely appreciate your suggestions.
Thanks for all the input. The upshot is that this won't/can't happen in real time.
The ensemble that wants to record has players in NY, NM and CA.
Chances are some will have Spectrum and others A T & T.
Presumably hard-wired internet will function better than wi-fi - Y/N?
Here's my AARP-member take on what to do:
The pianist should count off a tempo, play an intro, and record a predetermined number of choruses, including his solo.
Once his track is finished, he'll send it to the drummer and this-here bass player, each of whom "responds" to the piano track by laying down his own track.*
An engineer would receive the rhythm section tracks, mix them and send it to the sax player.
Is that anywhere close to a workable procedure?
*Bass player uses a MacBook Pro, circa 2013, iOs 10.13.3 (Catalina). Will that do the job?
- Would need an Interface, yes? I don't double on Electric, so this would be for upright only. Who's found one to recommend?
- Would I need a microphone, and if so, whose?
- Or would a Lifeline pickup suffice? Or, would results be better via a Schertler p/u, which has that little mic embedded in cork that slides into the bass-side loop of the bridge?
- Should I plan to wear only half a headset so I can hear the Piano track in one ear and the bass in the room while I record? Or should I wear both cans because the bass signal will flow through the interface and merge with the piano?
I don't want to be booted off the project, so I hope to rise to the demands of the process by acquiring the necessary equipment. Sincerely appreciate your suggestions.
Hard wired is definitely better
The recording order you mention will work, but as I mentioned in my last post, it would probably be advantageous if the first tracks are laid down with a separate click so there is a clear time reference throughout the project. Piano players can be very skilled at backphrasing, and it would be useful if there is a time reference for everyone else, so it is unambiguous where the beat is. Of course if the music is free and rubato a click will not work.
Yes you will need an interface. I believe the Focusrite Scarlett Solo has been suggested. It has been also suggested to use a preamp to buffer you pickup, which may be a good idea. However it may be fine without a preamp/buffer as the input impedance of the 3rd Gen Solo's instrument input is 1.5Meg.
Whose mic? Hopefully yours or one you can borrow. To decide if it sounds good enough you will need to try what you have. Believe it or not, people have recorded big hits with a Shure vocal mic wrapped in a towel.
I won't say it's the best choice, but try it and it might work. Also try your full circle and the Shertler if you own it. Trust your own ears. The Full Circle may sound bad flat, but with a bit of EQ in the DAW, it may be fine. A time aligned mix of a mic and the Full Circle will probably be quite nice.
Many audio interfaces have monitoring capabilities. Sometimes latency can be a problem here as well. Hopefully whichever interface you get will allow you to monitor the recording, and also monitor you signal before the AD conversion, so there is no latency. If you have access to a 0 latency setup I would suggest headphones on both ears. The Scarlett Solo has a feature called Direct Monitoring which routes a sample of your signal to the headphone jack along with whatever recording you are listening to. See attached User Guide.
Once you get an interface, you will need to read the installation directions, get it running, and ask more questions that are relevant to the specific interface you are using.
These videos may help:
Very nice - actually, sweet & lovely. (Would have liked a little more bass - both a longer solo, and a little less piano in the mix, but those are off-topic considerations.)
(1) What brand of "little Zoom stereo recorder" is being used?
(2) what pickup? a little curly cable near the bridge suggests a Full Circle?
(3) what strings? (I realize YMMV, etc.)
(4) Re: asynchronicity - who recorded first? It looks like the piano went first - at least, he wasn't reacting to you as much as you were reacting to him, IMHO
Sincere thanks.
Thanks! It was a Zoom H6. No pickup on this recording, but I have a Full Circle on the bass. Strings are 8 year old Dominant G_D_A and Spiro Stark E. The recording sequence was Bass scratch track--> Piano track--> Final bass track. So he would have been responding to what I played on the scratch track, which was likely different than what I played on the final track since my memory isn't that good.
As to the rest, we try to keep them short, and my lesson from this one was "don't mix exclusively on closed phones, because they accentuate bass".
A lot of music can be recorded track by track, specially highly arranged stuff or soloist with background group.
But if you have highly interactive stuff like in good small jazz ensembles, replacing a previous track or part of it with new material does not lead to the same kind of results as playing live together.
But if you have highly interactive stuff like in good small jazz ensembles, replacing a previous track or part of it with new material does not lead to the same kind of results as playing live together.
Not having the usual spontaneous interactivity will be a new experience for me.
At this point I am just trying to gather information as to what gear would convey the best Bass Sound, and will yield to the leader as to how the tracks will be assembled.
Chris F's sound is largely a product of his own excellence, of course, but I'm tempted to add a set of Dominants to try to approximate the sound he gets.
At this point I am just trying to gather information as to what gear would convey the best Bass Sound, and will yield to the leader as to how the tracks will be assembled.
Chris F's sound is largely a product of his own excellence, of course, but I'm tempted to add a set of Dominants to try to approximate the sound he gets.
I've done some collaborative asynchronous overdubbed recording recently, using only the free software program Audacity, and Dropbox for sharing. Everyone in the group has a USB audio interface with direct input monitoring, so they can listen to previously recorded tracks and their own playing at the same time. Audacity, or any other sound editing program, needs to be set up to account for the latency between playback of the existing tracks and the recording of the new track, but that is not difficult. The way I've done this is to create a click track long enough to accommodate the entire song, then create a label track to mark each section of the song. You can do this to whatever level of detail you need, but it helps a lot to have some markers at least showing the beginning of each chorus. I've gone as far as marking every chord change, and it was remarkably helpful! After that I usually record a bass track, but you could definitely hand it off to a drummer to record a track. After you have drums and bass, add chordal instruments. Finally, add vocals and/or solo instruments. You can record rhythm tracks and solo tracks separately with the same instruments. You can record separate sections, you can cut and paste, you can punch in. You can record clean tracks and re-record them with effects. The thing is, it's a completely different activity from getting together and jamming, or even performing in front of an audience. To me, it feels much more like the tech work I've done professionally. You're creating a work product online. You have to be sure you don't step on each others' work. You have to merge separate threads of work if different people are working at the same time.
How much lower latency is an audio adapter than the built-in audio of a typical modern Windows PC?
This all is a great solution, I use and like Audacity and like its results. But how does a person integrate this with video for a professional presentation? That's the missing link in all this.
I can't speak universally here, but many of the hotter gaming-level laptops and their installed sound equipment have the same or better latency numbers than more standard systems using audio interfaces. I just earlier this year purchased such a laptop and my system, network and total latency, using all native hardware and drivers on JamKazam, are as low or lower than many of the systems that are using audio interfaces. And, since I'm using only one track in a session, my bandwidth footprint in a session is only half that of those systems that use audio interfaces and are configured to use multiple tracks.
But, and this is a big thing, I am playing acoustic instruments, and I'm using the stereo microphones and stereo output jacks that come with my laptop...
The plus with audio interfaces is that you can plug electronic instruments directly into them, in addition to attaching a high quality voice mic to them, plus you can plug your headset directly into them, which means that the audio interface is offloading some of the audio processing from the computer. This does come with some overhead though, including a requirement for special drivers that may not properly recognize the hardware in all systems.
You need to get familiar with other disciplines. Videography is about the art of creating video — in this case, music video. And without in person interaction to boot. The high concept will drive the script. Think different types of camera views, which will dominate vs be occasionally supportive (like the typical 1.3 second glimpse of the bass player), types of lighting and backgrounds, clothing styles, etc. and of course support a visual story if this is a professional project. (All presuming your music and act is GOOD.)
Another discipline related to this is knowing how to shoot good video. AND how to properly light each scene. It's the analog of tracking the sound. And radically different.
You also need to master video editing software, and be able to seamlessly integrate the audio. This is especially tricky with lots of close shots like the lead singers face, or of your fingers while playing a prominent statement (and if you care about that level of visual accuracy).
Creating good video is enormously challenging. Consider the dozens of hours many people spend each week watching professional video. That's one thing the masses are experts at judging. And with video, the wrong moves bring judgment that is swift.
Most videos get skipped within 10 seconds or so. If your YouTube video gets 1,000 views, it's in the top 8% of all videos. Brutal!
