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Is this cheating?
- Thread starter funkybass
- Start date
Jim Carr
Dr. Jim
- Jan 21, 2006
- 16,223
- 7,613
- 76
- Disclosures
- fEARful Kool-Aid dispensing liberal academic card-carrying union member Musicians Local 72-147
If you stick with it longer and solve it on your own, you will learn more. In the case you describe, the only one cheated might be you.
I suppose "by ear" means no chart. But there is a difference between working out a chart foe yourself, by ear, and downloading the chords to "cheat" ...
OP: You're joking, right? How is that cheating in any way?
I don't understand this 'ear vs. chart' or "feel vs. theory' thing. It's like suggesting an actor could only properly learn Shakespeare by watching the play over and over. No scripts allowed!
I don't understand this 'ear vs. chart' or "feel vs. theory' thing. It's like suggesting an actor could only properly learn Shakespeare by watching the play over and over. No scripts allowed!
I suppose "by ear" means no chart. But there is a difference between working out a chart foe yourself, by ear, and downloading the chords to "cheat" ...
I read your first posting of that, mambo. I agree. But the OP reads like he tries to learn a song by ear first, but if it isn't working, decides to print off a chart. Maybe I'm misinterpreting...?
It's a nice crutch. The problems are that most chord charts and sheet music is wrong, sometimes very wrong. And you will miss the parts where the bass is not playing the root note, and even though playing the root note sounds fine, it's wrong.
The good news is that after years of practice, you will eventually learn to play songs by ear. I am always surprised when I go back to learn a song that years ago I thought was impossible, now is so simple I can't beieve it gave me such a hard time (Rockin the Casbah and Boogie On Reggae Woman to name two.)
Chord charts are great to get some basic foundations. Just don't rely on them exclusively. I used to use them all the time. Now I never use them. I just DL the lyrics and make my own chart and arrangements.
The good news is that after years of practice, you will eventually learn to play songs by ear. I am always surprised when I go back to learn a song that years ago I thought was impossible, now is so simple I can't beieve it gave me such a hard time (Rockin the Casbah and Boogie On Reggae Woman to name two.)
Chord charts are great to get some basic foundations. Just don't rely on them exclusively. I used to use them all the time. Now I never use them. I just DL the lyrics and make my own chart and arrangements.
No,not at all! Thousands of musicians use this same approach! It's like one poster just stated: "It's Insurance!"
A nice crutch? Sure charts may be wrong in the sense of not to the original composer’s score. But, unless you have the depth of experience and knowledge to “just play by ear” I think they are an absolutely essential part of learning and understanding a song. It’s ridiculous to suggest that learning only by ear is the eventual right way.
If I didn’t have the realbooks to help me I wouldn’t be nearly as far in playing the songs I do and developing an understanding of theory. Every time a new song came up I’d be floundering around to find it until I could go home and listen to some recordings.
It really baffles me; these recent threads that debate the value of ear vs. chart, theory vs. feel, tab vs. notes. Can we settle this once and for all: knowing how to read – even just a chord chart – and an understanding of theory is only going to HELP you.
If I didn’t have the realbooks to help me I wouldn’t be nearly as far in playing the songs I do and developing an understanding of theory. Every time a new song came up I’d be floundering around to find it until I could go home and listen to some recordings.
It really baffles me; these recent threads that debate the value of ear vs. chart, theory vs. feel, tab vs. notes. Can we settle this once and for all: knowing how to read – even just a chord chart – and an understanding of theory is only going to HELP you.
Crutches (and training wheels) are good, not bad. I'm just pointing out that most charts are incorrect, but they are great to utilize until you fully develop your ear training. I used to use them all the time until I get very good at picking things out by ear.
And BTW, some internet charts are so bad, you wonder if the person who wrote them can even hear.
And BTW, some internet charts are so bad, you wonder if the person who wrote them can even hear.
Whatever gets you connected to the music. I'm in the same spot. I've noticed that the more songs I learn and the more I get to play them, the more my ear trains itself. Don't sweat it. We all learn differently. Have FUN.
You are obviously not training your listening skills to their full potential. I always do it because most of the times I don't have the patience to listen to the same thing a thousand times until I figure it out. If it is a simple song it is ok, but when it gets too complicated I just get some charts.
If you want to improve your "listen and learn" skills, stop doing it.
If you want to improve your "listen and learn" skills, stop doing it.
Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages! What to use depends on the situation - what do you want to learn, how much time you have, etc...
I find it that the best approach is to do both, but it's the most time consuming! While any kind of written material can help you, it cannot get you there 100%... The subtle little things that cannot be put on paper can only be heard! I find it important to learn these subtle things, but more to the extent that you can add them to your "library" and use them when you play other songs, maybe your own... If you manage to recreate a performance from a record, you add nothing... But if you add something you learned from another musician, you can make something new... if any of this makes any sense, hehe
I find it that the best approach is to do both, but it's the most time consuming! While any kind of written material can help you, it cannot get you there 100%... The subtle little things that cannot be put on paper can only be heard! I find it important to learn these subtle things, but more to the extent that you can add them to your "library" and use them when you play other songs, maybe your own... If you manage to recreate a performance from a record, you add nothing... But if you add something you learned from another musician, you can make something new... if any of this makes any sense, hehe
Its a big difference. Depending on whether you're trying to learn to read charts or trying to learn to play by ear.
Some can do one, some can do the other. You'll never get good at one practicing the other.
To the OP. Define learning to play by ear.
Are you listening to the song without a bass in hand, trying to figure out the song? Or playing along with the song to learn it?
I tend to listen first, try to figure it out by ear. Then grab the bass later to verify, or to figure out something I couldn't figure out by ear. Really, playing along should be enough to verify it is what you thought it was.
Charts are iffy, no guarantee they're correct depending on where you get them. Lots of sheet music has simplified or smply wrong changes. Fine to use them to help when you get stuck, but make sure they're right. Your ear should be the final judge.
Keep at it, but if you're sure you're stuck, no problem checking a chart for help. Trying to figure it out for a while should help get that pattern embedded in your mind, and you will stand a good chance of remembering it, and the solution next time. So don't cave in too early, its good to struggle a bit. Just don't stay stuck for weeks. The more you do it, the less you'll get stuck.
Helps me to just assume every song is in C while learning the changes strictly by listening (or pick any key you like). Or think in terms of I V VI IV, etc. That lets you learn the structure and recognize similar patterns in other songs. Its not as apparent if you think C F G in C and A D E in A that they are the same progression, just in another key. Much easier learning to recognize the changes and intervals by ear like that. Then take advantage of the bass being transposition friendly and you can play those in any key.
Randy
