Double Bass Is this the best example for Ron Carters DI sound

[ctrlzjones]

Or would you care to point to a better or, if you will, worse cut?

 

[isolated]

Or would you care to point to a better or, if you will, worse cut?

"Ron Carter" and "best DI sound" are words that should not be placed anywhere near each other.

 

[Sam Sherry]

Few points:

a) Yeah, "Third Plane" and the first VSOP record are fine examples of Ron Carter's 'direct era' DB sound. I also dig the "Yellow & Green" record in that same vein -- RVG recording for CTI; check out the classic 1970s "tub" tom sound:



b) Obviously, nobody's saying that's the greatest conceivable DB sound. People, and Mr. Carter in particular, wanted it that particular moment. It was a swing of the pendulum from the vague, tubby, indistinct thump of gut strings and distant micing which characterized, for example, Jimmy Garrison's sound in the 60s. (There! I said it!)

c) HATS OFF TO RON CARTER, man. The guy had a totally distinct, identifiable sound and solo voice in the 1970s and he consciously stepped away from it to develop another, totally different distinct, identifiable sound and solo voice in the 1990s and since. For example:

 

[massimo]

Great examples here of "different sound signature" in different periods of Mr. Carter. I would like to know your thoughts about my opinion (very recent opinion) about Mr Carter and his sound after attentive listening of his 60 work with Miles, his '70 pickup direct sound, his '80/'90 sound (warmer but always very distinct and upfront in the mix) and his actual sound ( a little more natural, less midrange , darker). My opinion is: RON CARTER SOUNDS THE SAME WITH MILES UNTIL TODAY what changes is equipment (strings, pickup and recording approach) but his concept is the same. I realized this listening to his playing on ESP. I have always thought that he changed his "style" with the arriving of pickups and i always regretted his beautiful sound of the sixties but i was wrong. Maybe i don't like his "pickup DI sound" but if i go just a little deeper i discover the beauty and perfection of his playing on each of his recordings on each of his periods. Please share your opinions, do you agree and if not why?

 

[Dan Waineo]

Great examples here of "different sound signature" in different periods of Mr. Carter. I would like to know your thoughts about my opinion (very recent opinion) about Mr Carter and his sound after attentive listening of his 60 work with Miles, his '70 pickup direct sound, his '80/'90 sound (warmer but always very distinct and upfront in the mix) and his actual sound ( a little more natural, less midrange , darker). My opinion is: RON CARTER SOUNDS THE SAME WITH MILES UNTIL TODAY what changes is equipment (strings, pickup and recording approach) but his concept is the same. I realized this listening to his playing on ESP. I have always thought that he changed his "style" with the arriving of pickups and i always regretted his beautiful sound of the sixties but i was wrong. Maybe i don't like his "pickup DI sound" but if i go just a little deeper i discover the beauty and perfection of his playing on each of his recordings on each of his periods. Please share your opinions, do you agree and if not why?

I agree. It's what he is playing that is most important, not the sound he gets. I do like that you can hear what he is playing more clearly than the work in the 60s (as noted by Sam Sherry), even if the DI sound is a bit to much.

I was afraid this post was going to be about the awfulness of "dreaded bass direct". I'm glad to see you and Sam Sherry steered it away from that direction.

 

[lurk]

At that time one of the big influences was rock and r&b and in that music the bass was very clear sounding. A lot of jazz guys wanted that same clarity. Two of the greatest jazz musicians by any standard actually used bass guitar in their bands for the last decades of their careers: Diz and Sonny Rollins. I think Ron's playing has always been great, and I disagree with the previous poster in that I think his equipment and electronics has affected his growth and development. My personal favorite stuff is from the Miles era - all those great Blue Notes. That duo recording with Houston Person is phenomenal, btw. Just the two of them and they pull it off. For a great example of direct sound walking genius check this one out:

 

[lurk]

Ray Brown I should have mentioned.

 

[ctrlzjones]

I agree. It's what he is playing that is most important, not the sound he gets. I do like that you can hear what he is playing more clearly than the work in the 60s (as noted by Sam Sherry), even if the DI sound is a bit to much.

I was afraid this post was going to be about the awfulness of "dreaded bass direct". I'm glad to see you and Sam Sherry steered it away from that direction.

Yes, thank you, good proof for the constructive way of TB talking.

It is evident that a players sound not only is caused by the tools he uses (instrument, strings, amp) but also, and maybe in a more meaningful way, from what he does with his hands, how he uses the tools, summarised as phrasing. The ideal sound is what everyone is after [RC replied on one of the usual questions in interviews repeatedly that finding the good sound is what has driven him most] and it seems to be an alignment of many parameters. Even the tension in the legs can be an important factor, as I've been reading recently.

But there is still the "fashion factor". Sounds that are bound to a certain moment, be it by common taste or technical stuff. It sometimes is easier to get to the essence of what is happening because of the concordance with personal preferences in taste (e. g. mostly patterns fabricated through enough repetitions).
I do understand that people are repealed by the not very "natural" sound of RC 70s but I very much like those recordings way better than some other efforts from players that have a "better", more natural sound but are lacking the other parameters ...

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I always come back to this one when I think of his sound from that DI period. Sure, it's a live recording, but that's the sound:



This sound has been vilified over and over again ad nauseam, but few if any of us sitting here today will have been around and playing night after night from the period before DB amplification was common until now. I can totally see why players embraced the gear that was available then. Finally, as a bassist you can hear what you are doing in the mix, and you don't have to be able to drive a truck between the strings and fingerboard to do it. And in the end, the playing is iconic.

Would I embrace that gear today? Of course not... why drive a model T when I can drive around in a reliable modern vehicle with AC and a sound system? But back in the day, I'm sure it beat the snot out of walking on an unpaved road.

 

[notabene]

My Ron Carter story (in brief)...I arranged a couple of tracks for an album for Grace Slick with orchestra. I started the orchestration being given a basic, unedited, with her piano, and a drummer (John Barbatta), and no bass, nor click track. Despite my pleas to add the bass to the basic, she (rather headstrong [to her advantage, sometimes]) refused, so the orchestral part was added (in London) sans bass. The vocal was to be sung in Spanish, which Grace could not speak a word of. When it was done, the default bassist, from Jefferson Airplane was unsuccessful at adding the bass track (the track was almost 15 minutes long, and for some reason I can't remember, or understand, despite 32 tracks of 2" tape recorders, no overdubs were to be done. Still bassless, at her home, I played for her "Killing Me Softly" by Roberta Flack, which had Ron Carter playing bass (magnificently). I pointed out that RC was coming to town in a week for a CTI show (Freddie Hubbard, Hubert Laws, Stanley Turrentine et al) at the Oakland Colosseum. She immediately called him in New York, and he agreed to play a session before his gig...double scale plus a grand, if I remember correctly, 1972 dollars. I picked him up at the airport and drove him to the studio an hour away. I was a wind player and arranger, not at that time, a bassist. What a kind, generous man he was throughout. In the studio, he listened to the 15 minute track once, and from the chord sheet played the next pass beautifully. Best thing on the record. Amazing. And, worth repeating, a gentleman throughout. Divas can be difficult.

That night, I believe there were fewer than 50 people at the Oakland Colosseum who came to hear the giants of CTI. Go figure


If curious, and strong stomached, here is the track.



Steven Schuster

 

[Don Kasper]

If curious, and strong stomached, here is the track.

double scale plus a grand, if I remember correctly, 1972 dollars.

Quite a story! Proof that "it doesn't hurt to ask...", and that "everybody has their price"!
I've also heard very positive anecdotes re: RC's demeanor on "jingle" (commercial) recording sessions from a NYC composer.
(Sorry - I was only able to listen to the first 4 minutes of the track!)
Thanks, Steven.

 

[ctrlzjones]

If curious, and strong stomached, here is the track.


Steven Schuster

I would never have guessed that bass to be played by RC, direct sound or not, the spanish wind is telling me that I am riding on too many prejustices ...

 

[ctrlzjones]

For a great example of direct sound walking genius check this one out:

Uh, there seems to be more daring sounds than RBs direct bass on this recording ... After the 2cnd hearing I'm still not sure if the reverb (in general), the guitar or the choir is worth the prize money ...

 

[Les Fret]

Ok great topic!
I have no trouble with his direct or amped sound. In matter of fact I quite like it. You can hear the bass better this way. Better this than a muddy bass that you hardly hear in the mix like so many pre 70s jazz records suffer from.

Eddie Gomez is another example. His 70s albums with Chick Corea for example. I like it all as long as the playing is great.

 

[ctrlzjones]

Eddie Gomez is another example. His 70s albums with Chick Corea for example. I like it all as long as the playing is great.

Cecil McBee does/did it too ...



Funny what the YT compression does with the sound ...