Double Bass Is your amp louder than you think?

[fred pratt]

Is your amp louder than you think? Mine is.

The last thing I want to be is one of those guys with a bass amp that turns it up too loud, and I'm always thinking about it, trying to be vigilant against it. I get the amp up to a what I believe is a modest level, just so I can hear myself amidst the horns and the drums and the guitar and the electric piano, a level that sounds good to me where I'm standing --in front of the amp-- and then I turn it down some. Sometimes the drummer tells me to turn up some so he can hear me better.

But, man, if someone sits in on bass for me and I go out into the audience, I'm usually taken aback by how loud the bass sound is. It could be that guys who sit in for me tend to dig in more and are therefore louder to begin with. But I suspect it has to do with the sound being different in different parts of the room. If I switch instruments with the drummer at the end of the gig the bass sounds boomy from the drummer's chair.

I know this issue has come up tangentially in various threads.

The best solution would be to not use an amp at all, but that's not always practical for me. (And you know, even an unamplified double bass sounds bigger out in front of it than it does from behind it where I'm playing.)

I use an EA Micro 300 and Wizzy 10. It's relatively small, so one thing to do is to put it up on a chair. The speaker is closer to my ears and there is less chance of the speaker interacting upleasantly with the floor. I did the chair thing for a while but lately I haven't been doing the chair thing. The chair takes up some of the limited space on the bandstand and is not as stable as the floor. But I guess I need to do it again.

I could ask one of the band members to play the bass while I go out into the audience and listen, but that's a hassle and they are not going to dig in like I am so that's of limited value.

Any other ideas?

 

[Ric Vice]

Is your amp louder than you think? Mine is.

.......... if someone sits in on bass for me and I go out into the audience, I'm usually taken aback by how loud the bass sound is. It could be that guys who sit in for me tend to dig in more and are therefore louder to begin with. But I suspect it has to do with the sound being different in different parts of the room. If I switch instruments with the drummer at the end of the gig the bass sounds boomy from the drummer's chair.

Fred,
Personally, I think the amplified sound changes dramatically as you move of axis from the cabinet around to the left or right. So, unless you are standing directly in front of the speaker (which is virtually impossible) you don't know what the sound is really like, coming from the amp. Remember in most curmstances you hear the amp and the acoustic sound from the bass, since your the closest to it. Most of us are usually to the left of our cabinets anyway, and we usually EQ the cabinet so it's comfortable for us.

The best solution would be to not use an amp at all, but that's not always practical for me. (And you know, even an unamplified double bass sounds bigger out in front of it than it does from behind it where I'm playing.)

Frankly, unless there isn't a drummer my bass does not produce enough volume to work in that situation. Yet, others have told me that it sounds good out in front. I just have to scratch my head.

I use an EA Micro 300 and Wizzy 10. It's relatively small, so one thing to do is to put it up on a chair. The speaker is closer to my ears and there is less chance of the speaker interacting upleasantly with the floor. I did the chair thing for a while but lately I haven't been doing the chair thing. The chair takes up some of the limited space on the bandstand and is not as stable as the floor. But I guess I need to do it again.

I only raise my cabinet if I know the room or hall is boomy. Otherwise I put it nearer the floor.

I could ask one of the band members to play the bass while I go out into the audience and listen, but that's a hassle and they are not going to dig in like I am so that's of limited value. Any other ideas?

Additionally, they aren't bass players, so they don't know the sound you are going for. You could put a little digital recorder out in front of the band and check the levels on a break.

 

[Happy Steve]

Doing some cable repairs etc., I made myself a short XLR-to-XLR phase reverse cable for occasions when I am going microphone direct to desk, as the mixers I see usually do not have phase reverse options.

I mic'd the bass into my Eon power 10 and tested a cable. Then I swapped over to the phase reverse cable to check my soldering was all good. What a difference in the sound! The cable was good, but a whole lot of extra bass suddenly appeared, which must have been due to phase between the bass itself and the speaker output at the point where my head was located. I found this interesting because it has implications for subjectively testing different setups for sound quality, and also for what you are hearing when you have a speaker nearby on stage for foldback.

I usually think of the usefulness of phase selection in avoiding feedback, rather than how the sound is for the player! I think back to times when the sound person or someone in the audience says the bass sounded good, but I had the impression that the bass was thin-sounding. Maybe I was in bit of a dead spot which could have had a more satisfying sound for me with the phase reversed.

Steve

 

[TimmyP]

The only way that one can have the slightest clue about how he sounds in the house is to have a long cable or a wireless unit and walk the room. You will usually find that there is very little similarity between your rig's sound on stage and its sound in the room. And, you'll find that your rig does not have the EQ that you need to fix that hot spot in your room sound that often ruins the entire mix.

 

[Violen]

Alright.

Do you stand with your bass, and your amp behind you?

Does the sound go literally right under you?

It bugs me to no end when bass players turn up and then stand closer to the amplifier.

The sound produced from a bass amp doesnt even mature (IE the sound waves dont get to full size) till your like 10-20 feet in front of the amp! The closer you stand, the quieter it is! The sound passes by you!

Get a longer cable and move the amplifier further back, and stand in the same spot. Try this trick with the drummer at the rehearsal. Instead of turning up, see what happens when you move it.

Does he think its louder? Can he hear you better?


After that 20 or so feet, thats your sound. Turning down isnt really your option.


What you need to do is ask the sound guy. Its his job anyway right? If he says your good, your good.

In fact,

You worry about playing. Let the engineer worry about what he needs from you, even if you arent going into a board. Let him tell you if you aren't loud enough.


Quite a bit of this also has to do with the fact that you arent fighting anyone in your prime frequency range for sound. Trumpets and saxes and Trombones and pianos all live in those same octaves so they "fight" and loose clarity. Who do you have to contend with?


Trust me, your over thinking this.

 

[Ric Vice]

Fred,
Are you going through the PA? I got the impression that you were just trying to get a better sound out to the house from your amp. I usually try and set the amp at a reasonable volume level and good EQ for myself and everyone else on the stage. If there is a P.A. then I'll use it for the house. Some P.A.s are just to small for bass though.

Ric

 

[drurb]

Alright.

Do you stand with your bass, and your amp behind you?

Does the sound go literally right under you?

It bugs me to no end when bass players turn up and then stand closer to the amplifier.

The sound produced from a bass amp doesnt even mature (IE the sound waves dont get to full size) till your like 10-20 feet in front of the amp! The closer you stand, the quieter it is! The sound passes by you!

Get a longer cable and move the amplifier further back, and stand in the same spot. Try this trick with the drummer at the rehearsal. Instead of turning up, see what happens when you move it.

Does he think its louder? Can he hear you better?


After that 20 or so feet, thats your sound. Turning down isnt really your option.


What you need to do is ask the sound guy. Its his job anyway right? If he says your good, your good.

In fact,

You worry about playing. Let the engineer worry about what he needs from you, even if you arent going into a board. Let him tell you if you aren't loud enough.


Quite a bit of this also has to do with the fact that you arent fighting anyone in your prime frequency range for sound. Trumpets and saxes and Trombones and pianos all live in those same octaves so they "fight" and loose clarity. Who do you have to contend with?


Trust me, your over thinking this.

Good advice. The reason the "20-foot" demo works, however, is not at all because "the sound produced from a bass amp doesnt even mature (IE the sound waves dont get to full size) till your like 10-20 feet in front of the amp!"

The wavelengths are what they are at the source. What changes is the direct to reverberant ratio and the addition of room resonances to the overall waveform.

 

[mpdd]

good thread dialogue, thanks guys, i was wondering if it was just me or if the bass sound does kind of coalesce at a certain distance from the amp, when i practice at my loft my amp sounds thunderous, whereas when i practice at my drummers bungalow i can't hear myself

 

[J. Montgomery]

I typically play my upright through a GK MBS-112. I put the amp on a folding tv dinner tray. I find that I'm able to hear it (and adjust it) better than when its on the floor pointing at my feet.

You could also put your amp on an amp stand to where it pointed more towards your head like a monitor.

 

[fred pratt]

Thanks for the input, guys. None of these suggestions will work for me in the venue where my weekly gig is. As Ric correctly surmised, I'm not going through a PA --I'm playing directly to the house with the bass and my amp.

And the room is unusual. I play other gigs, but my weekly gig is in a restaurant and bar roughly in the shape of a long thin rectangle. There's the bar and some tables at the front, in the middle of the room is the band, and in the back is the dining area. The place where the band sets up is probably less than fifteen feet across and the room is at least a hundred feet long.

My amp is pushed as far back against the back (side) wall as it can go and pointed at the wall directly opposite me, only a few feet away, really. There's no way I can stand stand twenty feet in front of it, or even three feet in front of it. The place is crowded, so there's no way to wade into the crowd with my double bass.

Maybe it's just a difficult room and I have to live with it. I once tried turning the amp around to face the back wall, which is wood. That didn't sound very good. Maybe I'll try pointing it toward the front of the place, toward the drummer and the bar area.

 

[Marty Forrer]

I used to know a very good player who laid his amp on it's back pointing up. He maintained it enabled him to hear it, and the waves bounced off the wall behind him, thus giving all the projection needed. Never tried it myself, but interesting.

 

[fred pratt]

I've often thought about doing that, but what to do about the plug sticking out of the back of the speaker cabinet?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

If you have a small digital recorder, place it in various spots around the room and record the band at the level that seems right while you're onstage. It will only play back what it hears, and then you'll know how loud you are or aren't.