I've assembled a Spreadsheet on Modes

[WillPlay4Food]

When I work with multiple scales in the same practice session I always use the circle of 5ths / cycle of 4ths. You can even see that in my spreadsheet as much of the tabs are set up using the cycle of 4ths.

I'm working on shapes so I can say, oh, I'm in Eb Dorian and my fingers will know what to do, what notes are available and what scale tone they are without having to think about it. If I have to think, then I won't be playing and the song will have run away from me. Know what I mean?

I definitely want to know the note names for all scales, and I quiz myself on them when I can. I write them down when I have time to get the note names into my head.

At some point I want to be able to work backwards and forwards on the fretboard (so to speak). If I'm learning a song by ear and can find a few notes from the song on the fretboard, I want to know what notes I am playing and what scale / mode those notes are from. Then I want to use that knowledge to play along to the song.

Does this make sense? It does to me I just don't know if I'm explaining my methods correctly.

 

[GooseYArd]

Does this make sense? It does to me I just don't know if I'm explaining my methods correctly.

yep, it sounds like you're on the right track. I would make a habit out of thinking or saying the note names as you're practicing those shapes, and you can kill two birds with one stone. It would be better to practice them slowly and name the notes than to practice playing fast without them. Once you know you know them, you don't have to keep practicing that way, but it is sure easier to do that hard part first. Its frustrating to go so slowly but it works.

The reason I feel that way is that there is a more important goal than being able to play the scale itself, and that is to develop an awareness of the tone that you are on. And the reason THAT is important is that as soon as you know all the scales, someone is going to want you to play a solo over chord changes You play the first four notes of the Bb dorian scale, Bb c Db Eb and then suddenly the chord changes, say to C7. It will sound hoky if you now start playing a c mix. scale from the root- you want to find the "next closest note" in C mix. so its important to know that you're on an Eb (which is not in C mix.) so that you know whether you can stay on this note or move up or down a half step. If you are not sure what note you're on, it's hard to know which way to move.

A very good way to practice a mode is to use band in a box or something to play you 4 beats of 4 unrelated m7 chords, say F, Eb, D, C, and then play two octaves of the dorian scale over them. You won't be starting on the root of the next scale when the chord changes, For example, you'd play, F, G, Ab, Bb, then the chord changes to Eb so C, Db, Eb, F, now we're in D dor. so G, A, B, C. Ultimately this is how you'll really be using the modes so its a good idea to practice them that way from the start.

You also mentioned playing arpeggios. One thing the great Lucas Pickford stressed to me is the importance of memorizing the triads based on each note of the mode you are practicing. Just as the intervals rotate, as you learned for your spreadsheet, there is also a cycle of triads. Its probably even more valuable to have those triads under your fingers than to have the scales down, since they get you away from playing diatonically.

Anyhow I am rambling- I guess if I had a point it would be that having a spreadsheet of the modes is nice but what I would really love to see is another sheet that says "here is how you learn these scales", that doesn't involve memorizing them by rhote. When you have memorized all your scales it would be good to add whatever method worked for you to your document. The spreadsheet as it stands now is data- when you add your method, then you've got a tool.

Another thing that's worth mentioning is that the Aebersold books do this sort of thing. He spells out all the various scales in C, but then gives you a set of examples including scalewise motion, triads, and licks that you transpose to the chord you're working on, and it goes reaaally slowly. The entire first book is basically dorian and mixolydian. Aebersold has you getting your head around the tonality of Dorian before you go ahead and memorize the scale in all its keys, and has you playing over changes earlier as well.

Anyhow it sounds like I'm being disagreeable, but I spent so much time myself without outside help trying to figure out how to learn this stuff that I get excited at the chance to tell someone else what worked.

 

[WillPlay4Food]

Thank you very much, GooseYArd, for taking time to respond.

I do have questions regarding your last post, could you explain

1. The reason I feel that way is that there is a more important goal than being able to play the scale itself, and that is to develop an awareness of the tone that you are on. And the reason THAT is important is that as soon as you know all the scales, someone is going to want you to play a solo over chord changes You play the first four notes of the Bb dorian scale, Bb c Db Eb and then suddenly the chord changes, say to C7. It will sound hoky if you now start playing a c mix. scale from the root- you want to find the "next closest note" in C mix. so its important to know that you're on an Eb (which is not in C mix.) so that you know whether you can stay on this note or move up or down a half step. If you are not sure what note you're on, it's hard to know which way to move.

2. A very good way to practice a mode is to use band in a box or something to play you 4 beats of 4 unrelated m7 chords, say F, Eb, D, C, and then play two octaves of the dorian scale over them. You won't be starting on the root of the next scale when the chord changes, For example, you'd play, F, G, Ab, Bb, then the chord changes to Eb so C, Db, Eb, F, now we're in D dor. so G, A, B, C. Ultimately this is how you'll really be using the modes so its a good idea to practice them that way from the start.

3. You also mentioned playing arpeggios. One thing the great Lucas Pickford stressed to me is the importance of memorizing the triads based on each note of the mode you are practicing. Just as the intervals rotate, as you learned for your spreadsheet, there is also a cycle of triads. Its probably even more valuable to have those triads under your fingers than to have the scales down, since they get you away from playing diatonically.

4. Anyhow I am rambling- I guess if I had a point it would be that having a spreadsheet of the modes is nice but what I would really love to see is another sheet that says "here is how you learn these scales", that doesn't involve memorizing them by rote. When you have memorized all your scales it would be good to add whatever method worked for you to your document. The spreadsheet as it stands now is data- when you add your method, then you've got a tool.

this section some more?

My questions are this, can you explain in more detail what you are describing in paragraph 1.? I'm not sure I get this. Also I'm not quite sure what you meant by paragraph 2.

I guess I'll have to look at the triads again. I'm just starting on this, and find that I'm not automatic with being able to play triads / 7 chords for all notes in the scale. I'm better than I was a month ago though!

Regarding paragraph 4, I have yet to figure out a way of memorizing scales other than by rote. That's why there's no tab in my spreadsheet explaining any particular method. I asked in opening post in this thread if there was a way of learning all these scales other than by rote, and no one has posted a way to do so! If you know of a non-rote way for me to get all of this into my head & hands, please let me know!

Of course, next steps will be figuring out how to use this knowledge and apply it to making good basslines.

 

[GooseYArd]

Sure, and sorry it took so long.

In regard to the first paragraph, I can clarify, although some of this is going to be stuff you already know probably. One of the ways you are likely to find yourself using the modes is while improvising over a set of chord changes. For a given type of chord, there are typically one or more scales that "fit" the chord, some better than others. Not all of these are major modes, the modes of harmonic minor are also very interesting and prevalent in jazz, and there are other scales like the bebop that fit things, and a slew of others.

If you were improvising over a steady chord, a Bb minor 7, for example, the Bb dorian scale is one that would fit, and you could spend a lot of time playing licks based on that scale, triads, etc. However, most tunes that you play will be based on some chord progression. There are standard progressions l ike the blues, I IV I V VI I , and there are various other common forms and turnarounds in jazz. As a soloist or a melody writer, your goal should be to have your lines flow as smoothly as possible over these chord changes, rather that just noodling around in one scale for the first chord and then changing positions and noodling around in another scale when the chord changes.

So when you are taking a solo over a blues, for example, and the chord changes from C7 to F7, you don't want to have to shift yourself down to F and start playing the mixolydian scale from there. You could do that but it is not at all interesting to hear some guy noodling on a scale, particularly starting from the root. You can achieve a much more pleasing line if you pick up the next scale seamlessly on the chord change.

Lets say I have broken the previous rule and decided for my solo over a C blues just to play an ascending scale. The most common scale for C7 is c mixolydian, so I play C D E F#, and now the chord changes to F7. I want to continue my nice ascending line, so I consider F mix. for a second, and I know that going up from F#, G is the next ascending note that is in the F mix. scale, so I continue my line with G, A, Bb, C. The idea is that as these chords change underneath you, you want to be able to begin playing "inside" one of these modes. Because you might be starting someplace other than the root of the scale, the shape you memorized is no longer so helpful, what you really need to know is, when the chord changes, how can I get into the next scale from where I am now. This might sound like a complicated thing but it is how modes are actually used in practice.

Sometimes a composer will choose the chords such that a single scale fits everything. For example, if you wrote a tune where the chords were all the triads from the C major scale (CM7, G7, Bdim), then you could improvise with the same scale over every chord in the song.

Paragraph 2 means the same thing. When you are trying to learn these modes, what you ought to do is to practice playing around with the notes in the scale over a chord. Like say you're working on dorian. Use a keyboard or something and have it play you a Cm7 chord, and play the C dorian scale. Then play the 1, 3, 5, and 7 tones in that scale, then play them in various combinations, just listening to how nice they sound against the chord. Then try doing the same thing with two chords, say a Cm7 and an Fm7. If you write out C dorian and F dorian, you'll find they share some notes. Use keyboard or something to loop 2 or 4 cars of Cm7 and then Fm7 and just pick one of the shared notes and keep playing it as the chord changes, and listen for how it fits.

What you're really trying to do when you make up basslines is play pieces of a scale that fit a chord, and as the chord changes, you want to try to find the note that is closest to the note you're on now that is in the scale that fits the next chord, or possibly stay on the same note, if it fits both chords. There is no rule, other than that it should sound good.

In regards to paragraph 4, I already told you a way to remember the scales other than by rote It's via the circle of fifths. Again, briefly:

Bb major, thats easy. C has no flats. To get to Bb from C we go past F (one flat) to Bb (two flats).

The flats, in order, are always: B E A D G C F (circle of fifths again). So if a scale has one flat, its always B. If if has two flats, its B and E. Three flats, B E, and A. etc.

So Bb major has two and theyre B and E. Bb c d Eb f g a Bb.

C dorian. Dorian is a whole step above major. Go down a whole step. Its Bb major! We just figured that one out- b and e flat. So C dorian is c d eb f g a bb c.

C# dorian. Go down a whole step, B major. On the circle of fifths, B has 5 sharps. Sharps, in order are always F C G D A E B. So B maj is B C# D# E F# G# A# B. C# Dorian? C# D# E F# G# A# B.

It takes about a second to figure out the notes in any mode this way, and all you have to remember is the circle of fifths which tells you not only how many flats/sharps are in a particular major scale, it also tells you what notes they are. A scale in the major modes with four flats will always have Bb Eb Ab and Db, etc.

Hope that helps!

 

[WillPlay4Food]

Wow, thanks!

I totally appreciate you taking your time to respond in length.

I'll respond again once I've had time to digest your post.

 

[WillPlay4Food]

GooseYArd,

I reread your last two posts. I must've been too tired when I read your earlier post the first time.

I understand what you are saying now, my problem is it still takes too long to figure out what notes are in a scale. Basically my thought process goes something like this:

OK, I want to play in E Major. Let's see, E Major means the last sharp is D#. That means (using circle of 5ths) F, C, G & D are sharp.

Or, I want to play in Ab Major. Let's see, Ab Major means last flat is Db. That means (using cycle of 4ths) B, E, A & D are flat.

It takes a few seconds or more to do this in my head. I don't think anything other than practice will help increase my scale construction speed.

Your use of the circle of 5ths to build scales definitely lessens the amount of memorization. I just need to spend more time learning to move between scales / modes on the fly.

I have GarageBand and I've programmed in some minor chords so I can practice different scales / modes. Thank you very much for this suggestion.

Thank you again for your enlightening posts.

 

[GooseYArd]

GooseYArd,

It takes a few seconds or more to do this in my head. I don't think anything other than practice will help increase my scale construction speed.

Really what I am saying about scales is that people play scales in order to memorize the names of the notes in the scales, not to be able to specifically play a scale on an instrument. It is only people with guitars who get this backward, and it is because on a horn or a keyboard, it is not as simple to come up with a pattern that works everywhere, so when people with a horn play scales, they actually (at least in the beginning) have to think about the notes. They can't do it fast, and thats ok. The world will never, ever have the need of a musician who can play a modal scale fast but can't name the notes in it as quickly as he can play it.

The thing is that nobody plays scales and tries to pass it off as music. If you spend a lot of time learning to play scales fast, like I say "play an Eb locrian scale" and you go and find the root and you play the locrian scale shape that you know- that is no good. If you take a scale-centric, diatonic approach to improvisation, it will bore people. Although it sounds hip when you are practicing, it is not interesting at all to hear. It seems like a cruel trick, you find this shortcut so that you can play all these modes in any key in lightning speed, and then people tell you that your solo stinks. Been there, as they say.

What you really want to be learning are ways to play in a tonality that are not closely tied to diatonic playing. I've learned a lot of ways to practice this kind of thing, and they almost all involve some up-front effort of learning to be able to spell the scale. If you have learned the skill of scale spelling instead of memorizing scale patterns, you will have accomplished two things. You will be able to move on to practicing the modes in intervals, triads, etc., and you will not have to spend any time going back and unlearning those memorized patterns when your playing becomes stale. Also been there.

So before you spend any time in the fast lane to nowhere, try listening to how much hipper it sounds to do some of these things I mentioned before, playing the triads. Try playing the scale in sixths, and learn to spell the intervals at the same time. Fast is useless. Forget fast. Fast does not matter.

 

[WillPlay4Food]

I didn't mean fast as in triplet 32nd notes at 160bpm. I meant fast enough so that I could change modes without a noticeable pause in my playing. Using an earlier example you provided, say I'm playing over a C7 chord and I've played C, D, E, F#. OK, now it's time to play over an F7 chord.

In my mind I say, OK now it's time to switch from C-Mix to F-Mix. That's means F Maj (Bb) + flatted 7 (Eb). This means if I want to keep ascending I would pick G as the next note.

Well, in the time it took me to figure this out, 1 measure has gone by. That's what I mean by not being fast enough. Of course, practicing will help this.

I am following your earlier advice and have moved away from memorizing patterns. I've played sax and violin before (and am trying to learn basic guitar so I can record chords) so I am focusing on learning theory and notes vs. patterns. I basically thought patterns would be a shortcut, but like you said, having to switch all over the fretboard because I only know patterns and not notes won't give me the smoothness in my bass lines that I'm looking for.

I hear ya about scales getting into my playing as well. I was practicing 12 bar blues progressions and there were some times when I played a descending scale (8-b7-6-5-4-3-2-1) over 2 measures and I thought it sounded kinda nice. If I were paying to listen to someone (or playing for someone else) I don't think this would fly. It sounds dull, boring and unimaginative.

In order to bring more color into my playing, I've been reading the lessons over on Adam Nitti's website ( www.adamnitti.com ). He has a bunch of exercises where you work the scales using different intervals, mixing ascending & descending intervals and other melodic ways of playing the scale. This I'm thinking will help my playing become more imaginative / interesting.

So basically what I am working on during practice are a few things:

1) Learning scales / modes. Learning the notes and drilling my self on the intervals between them.

2) Playing over chords. This was a suggestion you made that I tried and found to be fun and educational. Will be doing more of this for a couple reasons: to learn intervals sound good/bad over chords and working in different modal scales, also, to learn different chord progressions and what intervals between chords sound good/bad, what kind of progressions build/release tension, and how to move between keys/modes and what sounds good/bad, etc.

3) Fretboard familiarity. I'm tackling this along with 1) above, but I do spend time doing chromatic exercises a la Joaquin de Pres' Bass Exercise Handbook. I'm singing the notes as I play them.

4) 12-bar Progressions. I do these partly for fun and partly to learn what intervals sound good/bad, and to work on improvisation.

5) Last but not least, playing along with CDs. In my head I have a list of songs with bass lines I like. I may not like the song or the musical genre sometimes but if I hear a good bass line, I want to learn it, pick it apart and figure out what makes it tick. I've been immersing myself in G-n-R's Appetite For Destruction as of late. There are some excellent bass lines, at least to my ears.

I work on other aspects (like sight reading) but my list above is what I consider my priorities right now. My main goal is to be ready to get into a band situation around the beginning of 2005. Hopefully I'm graduating from CCSU in December so all that time that is now going into study / homework would be available for practice & gigs.

 

[WillPlay4Food]

Giving one last bump.

 

[GooseYArd]

Giving one last bump.

I can't remember if I asked you if you had heard about the Wayne Krantz 4 fret primer thing. Did I PM you about that?

 

[WillPlay4Food]

I believe you did PM me about krantz (waynekrantz.com right?). I haven't checked it out yet but I will.

 

[GooseYArd]

It's like 10$ to sign up for a month of his service, but if you do it you can get the hour long 4 fret lesson and the entire first set of the last show he did @the 55bar, as well as some other lessons and tracks and stuff.

The 4 fret lesson is, I think, a lot more valuable than a lot of books might buy, and the cover at the 55 show is 15 bucks anyway, so its a steal

 

[WillPlay4Food]

I found a couple of errors in the spreadsheet. I'll fix and upload a newer version this weekend. Basically I double flatted some notes in one of the modes (I forget which one).

Just so this isn't a completely useless "bump" post, I'm going to paste something I found on www.theorylessons.com that makes learning mode construction much easier to remember.

So, without further ado:

[b]The Order Of Flats[/b]

LYDIAN IONIAN MIXOLYDIAN DORIAN   AEOLIAN PHRYGIAN LOCRIAN 
1 sharp --      1 flat   2 flats  3 flats 4 flats  5 flats 
#       --      b        bb       bbb     bbbb     bbbbb

[b]Spectrum of modes based on how they sound[/b]

LYDIAN    IONIAN MIXOLYDIAN DORIAN AEOLIAN PHRYGIAN LOCRIAN 
brightest  ----  ----       ----   ----    ----     darkest 


[b]LYDIAN[/b] - very bright, upbeat. Good for anything very
bright and upbeat such as pop, kids music, etc

[b]IONIAN[/b] - very sweet, happy, bright. Perfect for happy
songs, love songs, etc. Used for almost all childrens music

[b]MIXOLYDIAN[/b] - middle of the road bright scale. Good for
light rock, pop, country, etc

[b]DORIAN[/b] - perfect middle ground. Not too bright, not to
dark. Good for country, rock, blues.

[b]AEOLIAN[/b] - gritty, bluesy, warm sounding rock scale.
This is the standard rock and blues scale.

[b]PHRYGIAN[/b] - dark, classical metal sound. A Randy
Rhoads favorite.

[b]LOCRIAN[/b] - very dark, dissident, brooding. Good for
heavy metal, dark classical, etc

The following is the best part, and should make it very easy
to construct modes of the major scales once you've
memorized this:

LYDIAN      #4 -- -- -- -- -- -- 
IONIAN      -- 00 -- -- -- -- -- 
MIXOLYDIAN  -- -- b7 -- -- -- -- 
DORIAN      -- -- b7 b3 -- -- -- 
AEOLIAN     -- -- b7 b3 b6 -- -- 
PHRYGIAN    -- -- b7 b3 b6 b2 -- 
LOCRIAN     -- -- b7 b3 b6 b2 b5

So if you can remember the order that the flats come in, memorizing the modal formulas becomes much easier. Once you learn the order of flats, you should have a much better understanding of what makes each scale different, and why each one sounds the way it does.