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jazz progression-EG: Ebmaj7 to Bmaj7

joebar

joebar

Jan 10, 2010
5,193
4,051
#1
in jazz I find this sort of non-diatonic grouping regularly.
I see the similarities and am quite intrigued by this one. I need a different perspective on this one and would like to hear input from the schooled ones.
perhaps a certain way to look at it...
I am sitting here drinking wine and don't feel like working it out lol.
 
#3
There is a few ways to look at it, if we call Ebmaj7 the I chord, the Bmaj7 is a bVImaj7.
The way I look at is, it is modal borrowing, the composer is borrowing a chord from Eb Aeolian where chord built off the sixth degree would be Bmaj7 and you use a Lydian scale over it
I hope that kind of makes sense? I am not the best at explaining things
 
#4
BonoBass said:
There is a few ways to look at it, if we call Ebmaj7 the I chord, the Bmaj7 is a bVImaj7.
The way I look at is, it is modal borrowing, the composer is borrowing a chord from Eb Aeolian where chord built off the sixth degree would be Bmaj7 and you use a Lydian scale over it
I hope that kind of makes sense? I am not the best at explaining things
Click to expand...
I can see it that way too-

I see the commonalities of notes:
the Bb and Eb are common to both chords.
I notice when you superimpose the two chords , there are some augmented triads built as well.
 
#8
throughout the day I have been studying the sequence deeper-

the progression has elements of a I-minIV vamp-
if one calls Ebmaj 7 and we make the Bmaj7 an extension of Abmin7, we get a I-minIV chord progression. a very common turnaround; it is just coloured further in a jazz type setting.
my experience with that sequence tells me the melodic minor sounds decent starting on the Ab.
I guess I am answering my own question...
 
Last edited:
#9
BonoBass said:
There is a few ways to look at it, if we call Ebmaj7 the I chord, the Bmaj7 is a bVImaj7.
The way I look at is, it is modal borrowing, the composer is borrowing a chord from Eb Aeolian where chord built off the sixth degree would be Bmaj7 and you use a Lydian scale over it
I hope that kind of makes sense? I am not the best at explaining things
Click to expand...

Makes better since if the Ebma7 were spelled D#maj7, OR, the Bmaj7 were spelled Cbmaj7.

I would need to see a VALID example for a educated response. But one thing I know, it's easier to read: Ebma7 | Bmaj7, rather than D#maj7 | Cbmaj7.

* * *

Then there is the Major Thirds Cycle (or something like that). Explore Coltrane's Matrix Cycle from Giant Steps or Countdown.

An earlier example of the Major Third Cycle is found in Have You Met Miss Jones.

I don't think that there is any borrowing from Modes. It's more from the numerological significance of the Triangle.
 
#11
Stick_Player said:
Makes better since if the Ebma7 were spelled D#maj7, OR, the Bmaj7 were spelled Cbmaj7.

I would need to see a VALID example for a educated response. But one thing I know, it's easier to read: Ebma7 | Bmaj7, rather than D#maj7 | Cbmaj7.

* * *

Then there is the Major Thirds Cycle (or something like that). Explore Coltrane's Matrix Cycle from Giant Steps or Countdown.

An earlier example of the Major Third Cycle is found in Have You Met Miss Jones.

I don't think that there is any borrowing from Modes. It's more from the numerological significance of the Triangle.
Click to expand...
I can see the thirds connection too.
I will take a look at that matrix.

the cool thing about a vamp like this is how outside it sounds, and yet is inside as well and has nice resolution-
 
#12
joebar said:
I can see the thirds connection too.
I will take a look at that matrix.

the cool thing about a vamp like this is how outside it sounds, and yet is inside as well and has nice resolution-
Click to expand...

Work in the ii-V's before the I:

||: Fm7 Bb7 | Ebma7 | C#m7 F#7 | Bma7 :||

Or, go up a Major Third:

||: Fm7 Bb7 | Ebma7 | Am7 D7 | Gma7 :||

Or. the complete cycle, up then down:

||: Fm7 Bb7 | Ebma7 | Am7 D7 | Gma7 | C#m7 F#7 | Bma7 :||

Mix it up...
 
#13
if I play a Bmaj7#5 and jump a maj 3rd to D#maj7#5 and then another maj3rd to Gmaj7#5, I can see the symmetry of these three chords. the symmetry is reminiscent of the diminished chord sequence of stacked minor 3rds except that in the case of these Aug. chords, there are three shapes; with the Dim. chords, there are four.
I am starting to see the possibilities of these changes.
 
#14
joebar said:
if I play a Bmaj7#5 and jump a maj 3rd to D#maj7#5 and then another maj3rd to Gmaj7#5, I can see the symmetry of these three chords. the symmetry is reminiscent of the diminished chord sequence of stacked minor 3rds except that in the case of these Aug. chords, there are three shapes; with the Dim. chords, there are four.
I am starting to see the possibilities of these changes.
Click to expand...

You are onto something.

Diminished Seventh Chord Cycle = Square

Major Third Chord Cycle (i.e., Giant Steps) - Triangle
 
#17
BonoBass said:
There is a few ways to look at it, if we call Ebmaj7 the I chord, the Bmaj7 is a bVImaj7.
The way I look at is, it is modal borrowing, the composer is borrowing a chord from Eb Aeolian where chord built off the sixth degree would be Bmaj7 and you use a Lydian scale over it
Click to expand...

Yeah, "modal borrowing" is one good way to look at it. Another good way to look at it -- and this gets back to morgansterne's assertion that the progression was reminiscent of Satie -- is as a Constant Structure Chord Sequence. (Sometimes called a Constant Structure Chord Progression, though I think strictly speaking these types of harmonic environments don't actually progress in the sense that common practice major/minor harmonies do.)

A Constant Structure Chord Sequence simply takes the static shape or interval makeup of one chord and transposes it to different pitch centers without assigning a functional name -- or a function, really -- to those locations. So rather than suggesting that the sequence starts in one key and then borrows from other related keys, it can be helpful to think that "key" isn't so important, and that the centrism of any given chord is equally important. The first chord may sound like "home" (or the "tonic"), but that may be simply because it was the first chord in the sequence (and likely gets returned to with some regularity).

Satie used Constant Structure Chord Sequences to great effect, as did Ravel & Debussey. Herbie Hancock's "Maiden Voyage" is a good example of a Constant Structure Chord Sequence in a somewhat more modern jazz vernacular.
 
#18
good responses all around-

for me, i am still searching for that eureka moment in regards to augmented chords
with diminished chords, one can easily see the connection to a dominant chord or even a min6 chord. i am still studying the possibilities of them and hope i can better understand the symmetry they have much like diminished chords.
 
#19
Bob_Ross said:
Satie used Constant Structure Chord Sequences to great effect, as did Ravel & Debussey. Herbie Hancock's "Maiden Voyage" is a good example of a Constant Structure Chord Sequence in a somewhat more modern jazz vernacular.
Click to expand...

In my theory classes it was referred to as chromatic planing, in particular with regard to Debussy's tendency to use it in scalar motion for the characteristically sweeping, chromatic-yet-tonal sound. Ravel as well, though IMO Debussy really sat on it in some piano works and, if I recall correctly, in the Nocturnes and other chamber pieces.

What's funny is how, in a simpler fashion, the "Detroit" sound of planing minor triad & 7th chords captures a surprising amount of the essence of that technique, even though typically used in melodic synth leads.
 

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