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Double Bass Jazz Standard A Child Is Born by Thad Jones

D

David281189

Jun 25, 2012
93
1
#1
Hi Guys!

I have a question regarding the Jazz Standard A Child Is Born by Thad Jones!

I have transcribed everything by ear and checked afterwards with my realbook.

the chrod progression is:

A:
Bbmaj7 Eb-/Bb Bbmaj7 Eb-/Bb

Bbmaj7 Eb-/Bb Adim7 D7#9

G-7 D7#5 G-7 D7#6

G-7 C7 Fsus7 F7

I would suggest the tune is in Bbmaj but i dont unterstand why there is Eb-...
Maybe i have overlooked something while studying Jazz Theory...sooo i hope someone could enlighten me on this one and explain it to, if there is an explanation ;)
 
#5
Parrallel minor mode is an homonym scale base on the root of Bbmaj.
So the minor scale derived from this is Bbmin(can be melodic, harmonic or...)

Now you can discover Ebmin7 from Bbmin. Lot's of song use this concept sometime called the back door II-V, IVm7-bVII7-Imaj7. Stella by starlight! 7-8 Measure(Ebm7-Ab7-Bbmaj7)

Both for that song it's funny I've always seen it more has a passing tones or tension momentum. Just like when playing a Idim for 2 beat resolving to Imaj7.

It just sound great in the end, but you hear well what you understand well!
 
#6
David281189 said:
Could you explain that? the IV chord in Bbmaj is Ebmaj (lydian mode)...or do you mean the IV in G- ? that would be a C- (dorian mode)

i don't get it...none of the inversions possible gives me a Eb-:crying:
Click to expand...

Silevesq covered it well.

Sometimes I've seen the chord in question written: Ebm6/Bb. Ignoring the Bb in the bass (i.e., 2nd inversion), the Ebm6 (Eb, Gb, Bb, C) can be thought of as a iiØ​7 (C, Eb, Gb, Bb) in 1st inversion.

So, maybe the chord in question is really Cm7-5/Bb?

salcott said:
It's Eb minor because that's what Thad wrote. That's pretty much all you need to know.
Click to expand...

Mozart - Beatles, and many others before and in between, used the "Minor Four" chord before Thad Jones did in THIS composition. One does need to know more.
 
#7
Enlightening. It is a beautiful change. I'm such a rock n' roll cave man I always just thought, "Hey we could use the iv - I thing, I love that!"

Often the Beatles use IV - iv - I, which this particular tune doesn't. StickPlayer or Silevesq care to offer elaboration there? Justification/thinking of using both the IV and iv? I mean besides "It sounds great." Anyway it is great to have an explanation/name-handle to take to the interwebs for further study, thanks guys.

Also, I love the sound of sus7 chords, I'm just crazy about stacked 4ths. I will have to check out this Thad Jones tune. Much thanks.
 
#8
I was not implying that the I to iv was something that Thad originated; I was merely suggesting that before we get too deep in the weeds here, we consider the idea that he wrote a melody and harmonized it the way he did simply because the sound pleased him.
 
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#11
HolmeBass said:
Often the Beatles use IV - iv - I, which this particular tune doesn't. StickPlayer or Silevesq care to offer elaboration there? Justification/thinking of using both the IV and iv? I mean besides "It sounds great." Anyway it is great to have an explanation/name-handle to take to the interwebs for further study, thanks guys.
Click to expand...

I believe you are correct about any Lennon/McCartney's use of a iv - usually (maybe always) following a IV.

As far as why? I'll defer to Sir Paul:

Paul McCartney called going from C & F to Fm “the normal thing [to do]” (Many Years From Now p122).

salcott said:
I was not implying that the I to iv was something that Thad originated; I was merely suggesting that before we get too deep in the weeds here, we consider the idea that he wrote a melody and harmonized it the way he did simply because the sound pleased him.
Click to expand...

I wasn't intending to suggest that was what you meant. I felt the OP was looking for a musical-theory-type-explanation.

Thad Jones, Paul McCartney, Mozart, etc., I believe wouldn't have been taking any "music theory" into consideration, when composing. It simply sounded good to them.
 
#12
I'd be courious to hear/see song from the Beatles whit the IV-IVmin-I.
Than I will be able to feel and hear maybe more of the ideas!

The first thing that come to mind from that, is the slow melody.
Let say in Cmaj the progression would have a slow melody of A(F)-Ab(Fmin)-G(C) which is an interesting line within the chord progression.

Sometime this is what distinguish a good from a great progression. It could be compare to any descending line created on a Imin. My funny valentine!

But concerning the theory behind it... not sure if there is really a perfect answer!
 
#13
Silevesq said:
I'd be courious to hear/see song from the Beatles whit the IV-IVmin-I.
Than I will be able to feel and hear maybe more of the ideas!
Click to expand...


Blackbird (key of G) – measure 6 of the verse (C-Cm)

Hello Goodbye (key of C) – measure 12 of the verse (F-Fm/Ab)

I Call Your Name (key of E) – measure 14 of the verse (A-Am)

In My Life (key of A) – measure 3 of the verse (D-Dm)

You Won’t See Me (key of A) – measure 11 of the verse (D-Dm)

When I’m Sixty Four (key of C) – measure 13 of the verse (F-Fm)

There might be more. Keys and measure numbers correspond to The Beatles Complete Scores.
 
#14
I understand the OP is looking for a "musical-theory-type-explanation"; my point is, sometimes there isn't one, nor does there need to be one. We can twist ourselves into pretzels looking for the theoretical justification for something while losing track of the simplicity of liking a sound and playing it. It's a IV minor in a major key. QED.
 
#15
salcott said:
I understand the OP is looking for a "musical-theory-type-explanation";
Click to expand...

He got one.

salcott said:
my point is, sometimes there isn't one, nor does there need to be one.
Click to expand...

But there is one. The OP needed/wanted one.

salcott said:
We can twist ourselves into pretzels looking for the theoretical justification for something while losing track of the simplicity of liking a sound and playing it.
Click to expand...

Post #2: "iv in 2nd inversion. Borrowed from the Parallel Minor Key."

No twisted pretzel there. Straight to the point.

salcott said:
It's a IV minor in a major key. QED.
Click to expand...

Even the OP knew that.

From his post: "I would suggest the tune is in Bbmaj but i dont unterstand why there is Eb-...
Maybe i have overlooked something while studying Jazz Theory...sooo i hope someone could enlighten me on this one and explain it to, if there is an explanation ;)"

He got an answer, like it or not.

Q.E.D.
 
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#16
David281189 said:
Hi Guys!

I have a question regarding the Jazz Standard A Child Is Born by Thad Jones!

I have transcribed everything by ear and checked afterwards with my realbook.

the chrod progression is:

A:
Bbmaj7 Eb-/Bb Bbmaj7 Eb-/Bb

Bbmaj7 Eb-/Bb Adim7 D7#9

G-7 D7#5 G-7 D7#6

G-7 C7 Fsus7 F7

I would suggest the tune is in Bbmaj but i dont unterstand why there is Eb-...
Maybe i have overlooked something while studying Jazz Theory...sooo i hope someone could enlighten me on this one and explain it to, if there is an explanation ;)
Stick_Player said:
Blackbird (key of G) – measure 6 of the verse (C-Cm)

Hello Goodbye (key of C) – measure 12 of the verse (F-Fm/Ab)

I Call Your Name (key of E) – measure 14 of the verse (A-Am)

In My Life (key of A) – measure 3 of the verse (D-Dm)

You Won’t See Me (key of A) – measure 11 of the verse (D-Dm)

When I’m Sixty Four (key of C) – measure 13 of the verse (F-Fm)

There might be more. Keys and measure numbers correspond to The Beatles Complete Scores.
Click to expand...

also: Creep by Radiohead
Click to expand...
 
#17
The thing to remember is that theory comes 2nd. It's a way to explain the sound. The simplest explanation is always the best. To me, The Eb and the Gb (pitches) are just escaping the D and F creating a nice little consonant tension that gets resolved when they slide back to where they came from. That's what Mr. Alcott was getting at. Theory explains sound. Don't get hung up on intellect and rules. I say this as a degree holding professional who teaches theory at the college level.
 
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