Double Bass John Goldsby on Red Mitchell

[Don Kasper]

Is it worth noting that the outlining of the Bb6 chord in m. 13&14, and (the F6 chord) in m.15, is RM moving in parallel motion (not strict parallelism) with the melody?
Or am I just "splitting hairs"?
(Sorry to you bald guys - you know who you are.)
Thanks!

 

[Huy Nguyen]

And this is why so many great voices in the past no longer post here, and what I think John was getting at. This is torturous.

Someone was asking in the teacher forum about the definition of pedantic. Here's your example.

 

[Paul Warburton]

No problem — in retrospect, I would write D7 on beat 3 and Ab7 on beat 4. But, Red's solo would still sound the same

Another, "I wish I'd said that" moment in time, because that's, IMO, exactly the answer; simple and to the point. I like this thread for the fact that it brings more attention to the greatness of Red Mitchell's work, that have sometimes, been ignored by jazz double bassists. As I mentioned in John's column, Red's ability to make pretty little melodies in his walking lines behind other soloists, takes bass accompanyment to another level, and relieves the bassist from the boredom of being the "mule" in support of the soloist. In terms of his solos, Jim Hall once said that:"Red's bass solos were on a par with Lester Young's, and the fact that it was coming out of a string bass, was mind boggling". Talk about an endorsement!

 

[Paul Warburton]

Is it worth noting that the outlining of the Bb6 chord in m. 13&14, and (the F6 chord) in m.15, is RM moving in parallel motion (not strict parallelism) with the melody?
Or is am I just "splitting hairs"?
(Sorry to you bald guys - you know who you are.)
Thanks!

Hey, piss off. If this's your best attempt of insulting us "bald guys" and we DO know who we are, good luck. We can out insult you in any given thread.
And no thanks to YOU!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

After listening to a lot of Red's playing, I think what I like most about it is that it all sounds "sung": not just the solos, but also the bass lines and and broken time figures he plays all sound as if they were conceived as sound independent of the theoretical matrix they occur in. Red was a consummate musician who would have been capable of understanding any theory concept, and indeed as a pianist he demonstrated that the finer details of harmony in no way eluded him; at the same time, I think that he also didn't think of jazz as a matrix of rules that must be adhered to, but rather a space to explore in combination with other living, breathing musicians. And to my ears, he didn't seem to mind coloring outside the lines if that's the direction the conversation turned.

But it's the "singing" aspect that I keep returning to in his playing. The thing that I take away from listening to Red's recordings is that I'm always hearing something spontaneous, as if he's searching in the moment all the time for the best sound to play right now in context. Am I projecting? I don't know, but that's what I hear when I listen to him.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

IMO, if you listen to his entire body of work, Red is really the epitome of the idea that the "instrument is an illusion".

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Case in point:

 

[Huy Nguyen]

And here's that example of him playing the had in a way I wanted to hear. Sublime.



Of course it's labeled with the wrong title. Which tune is that I forget?

 

[Paul Warburton]

After listening to a lot of Red's playing, I think what I like most about it is that it all sounds "sung": not just the solos, but also the bass lines and and broken time figures he plays all sound as if they were conceived as sound independent of the theoretical matrix they occur in. Red was a consummate musician who would have been capable of understanding any theory concept, and indeed as a pianist he demonstrated that the finer details of harmony in no way eluded him; at the same time, I think that he also didn't think of jazz as a matrix of rules that must be adhered to, but rather a space to explore in combination with other living, breathing musicians. And to my ears, he didn't seem to mind coloring outside the lines if that's the direction the conversation turned.

But it's the "singing" aspect that I keep returning to in his playing. The thing that I take away from listening to Red's recordings is that I'm always hearing something spontaneous, as if he's searching in the moment all the time for the best sound to play right now in context. Am I projecting? I don't know, but that's what I hear when I listen to him.

No, you're not projecting, DURRL, and you're making a great point, because it's a well known fact that he was more influenced by horn players and singers than by other bassists in terms of his solos. His few great recorded arco solos were, admitted by him, to be heavily influenced by Gene Ammons,
because he was obcessed with Jugs' very dark, thick sound on the tenor.

 

[Paul Warburton]

And here's that example of him playing the had in a way I wanted to hear. Sublime.



Of course it's labeled with the wrong title. Which tune is that I forget?

Red wrote this on the changes to "Indian Summer" and titled it "Jam For Your Bread" originally recorded on his first record as a leader with Hampton Hawes, Conte Condoli, Joe Maini and Chuck Thompson. Thanks, I'd never heard this rendition before.

 

[Paul Warburton]

Here's a great example of Red when he gets pissed off, shot in the general direction of jazz critics. If you know the specific critic he's aiming at in the lyrics, you will get it. Red on piano, composition, and vocals....

 

[stringtapper]

And this is why so many great voices in the past no longer post here, and what I think John was getting at. This is torturous.

Someone was asking in the teacher forum about the definition of pedantic. Here's your example.

For the record, I brought up the point about the Gb/F# merely as a discussion of the transcription as an analytical tool. It seems to me that if the transcriber knows what's going on theoretically and it can be shown in the transcription, then why not show it? (And I know John Goldsby knows what's going on theoretically, so that's not what I'm saying)

The thing about internet forums is that we have to communicate with words (barring linked scores and recordings). We're not in a jam session. We're not sitting together at the piano. So if discussion that is perceived as overly analytical is just going to be met with a "aww just feeeeel it maaaan" then why are we bothering talking about anything at all?

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Red wrote this on the changes to "Indian Summer" and titled it "Jam For Your Bread" originally recorded on his first record as a leader with Hampton Hawes, Conte Condoli, Joe Maini and Chuck Thompson. Thanks, I'd never heard this rendition before.

I thought so. It's weird, over time I very much gravitate to Red's sound in my own playing. Gonna have to transcribe that one and digest it.

@ Tapper: I really don't care how many times you beat that dead horse after the 3rd time. The horse is still dead and the notes are still just labels and it's still a tangent from the main topic. If you don't have the ear for simple beautiful melodies, I think you have other problems.

 

[Paul Warburton]

With Jimmy Rowles and Duck. A real beauty. The history with Jimmy and Red goes as far back as their years with Lady Day in the late 40's.

 

[stringtapper]

@ Tapper: I really don't care how many times you beat that dead horse after the 3rd time. The horse is still dead and the notes are still just labels and it's still a tangent from the main topic. If you don't have the ear for simple beautiful melodies, I think you have other problems.

There's no reason to insult people. Just because someone talks details about a transcription doesn't mean they "don't have an ear for simple beautiful melodies."

And here I thought this was the kind of crap that only went down on the EB side of talkbass.

 

[Don Kasper]

If you know the specific critic he's aiming at in the lyrics

Is it Leonard Feather (aka "Learned Father")?

When RM came to Eastman (in 1979/1980?), he mentioned that he was playing a lot of piano lately, and was exploring extemporaneously making up poetry/lyrics, as well as melodies(!).
Bill Dobbins described RM's piano playing as "...like Jimmy Rowles, but with more chops!".
RM also mentioned that he practiced the bass "in his head", sometimes "thinking" basslines at night while falling asleep.
And NOW, I'll "piss off".

 

[Paul Warburton]

Is it Leonard Feather (aka "Learned Father")?

When RM came to Eastman (in 1979/1980?), he mentioned that he was playing a lot of piano lately, and was exploring extemporaneously making up poetry/lyrics, as well as melodies(!).
Bill Dobbins described RM's piano playing as "...like Jimmy Rowles, but with more chops!".
RM also mentioned that he practiced the bass "in his head", sometimes "thinking" basslines at night while falling asleep.
And NOW, I'll "piss off".

"Don't know why there's no sun up in the sky; Leonard Feather.": Richie Cole, 1977. And, I must admit that you're a good sport.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

There's no reason to insult people. Just because someone talks details about a transcription doesn't mean they "don't have an ear for simple beautiful melodies."

And here I thought this was the kind of crap that only went down on the EB side of talkbass.

I didn't mean it as an insult tho you took it as one, as my original post wasn't directed at you anyhow.

Anyways, talking too much about music, as proven here, is akin to "dancing about architecture". A saying that comes up here time to time about threads that get too pedantic.

This is where I'd insert the Bruce Lee vid about "Finger Pointing at the Moon", but I'm too lazy. Dithering over whether something should be written as G# or A is not something most of us care about at this point.

Sorry all, I won't say more of it. Back to your regularly scheduled RM programming.

I'm a fan of this album he did with Karin Krog and Warne Marsh. Something about all his contrapuntal playing and support.

 

[Don Kasper]

And, I must admit that you're a good sport.

"it takes one, to know one!"
Thanks.

 

[pnchad]

There's a video - I'll try to find w/RM playing piano & I think it was Chet Baker