Double Bass Led Zeppelin Rock'n'Roll: how to play fast on E string?

[jj.833]

Hi,
I am to play Rock'n'Roll in this arrangement with my big band. No band switching - we'd just play the tune, first half in rock and the second half in swing style (conductor's idea).

I want to play it respectfully to John Paul Jones original. I transcribed the line. I found that it's very hard to play it, as it's a stream of fast A eights on E string without much movement, and my right forearm gets stiff quite fast. I developed a practising technique which seems sensible to me. Described in the video here (the video is mirrored; I'm right handed).



I'm getting better at this, but my progress is to slow for my tastes. I imagine that this type of practising can lead to interesting results. Do you have any comments or any better learning method of such type of plucking?
Thanks a lot!

 

[Biggbass]

you're on the right course with the practice method. It's all about developing the muscles that need the extra toning.
so, IMHO, just keep doing it.
Also, might help to ease back on the plucking force and let the bass do more of the work. It will sound softer, but if you amplify the bass, you can bring the lost volume back thru the amp.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Since the notes are open strings, try alternating the fingered note with the open string above it. This allows a break for the right hand because of the built in rake between the open A and the fingered A below it.

 

[jj.833]

might help to ease back on the plucking force and let the bass do more of the work

Thanks! I'm playing dead notes just to 'cross out the bass from the work', so to say. I'm plucking hard, because it's harder to learn; when I play real line, I play it softer, as the bass calls for.

 

[ctrlzjones]

For playing fast it is good to be most relaxed and be there mentally, paying attention; don't make it empty gymnastics letting it to the fingers. Also I would have the notes sound, the results of the plucking seems to be important to know if it's done right. Or stopping the strings with all 3 fingers from the the left, as coordination is a vital element for sound and speed.
I like isolation as a way to tackle specific things, but in this case it does not seem to be very helpful.

 

[longfinger]

URB is a different instrument and in this case you might want to hear it playing strong, resonant, short 1/4 notes instead of 1/8th notes, and when playing the M2 lower neighbour pattern hammer on the 1/8th notes. I think that sounds good.

When it comes time to swing and walk, make the 1/4 notes full and legato.

 

[BarfanyShart]

When I do this kind of thing, I basically point my hand up over the fingerboard and play like an electric bass, or just a more electric bass-like right hand. I would do fast eighths thumb on downstroke index finger on upstroke, hold thumb and forefinger stiff and close together, and rotate you wrist and forearm in rhythm like you are using a pick.

 

[jj.833]

Since the notes are open strings, try alternating the fingered note with the open string above it

Thanks, Chris, this is a great idea! It's so simple I cannot believe it didn't occur to me. I believe it is also in line with what John Paul Jones would do. Though, it would need a bit of planning the groove, as the sound of the fingered and open notes is quite different, and also when both notes sound, the bass is easy to get choked. I'd probably think of a good alternating rhythm pattern and will play it whole rock half of the song through. I will also continue my dead rhythms as I feel it would be vital to most of 'contemporary' grooves.

Also I would have the notes sound, the results of the plucking seems to be important to know if it's done right. Or stopping the strings with all 3 fingers from the the left, as coordination is a vital element for sound and speed.

I'm playing dead notes because the attacks and dynamics are very good to hear, so I can check whether my right is doing right thing. It's not meant to teach me the line, it's meant to teach me the approach. But you're right, I'm also practising the real line, because with sounding notes the overall response of the instrument is different. Thanks for the tip to play fast staccatos for coordination training!

in this case you might want to hear it playing strong, resonant, short 1/4 notes instead of 1/8th notes, and when playing the M2 lower neighbour pattern hammer on the 1/8th notes.

I'm not sure I understand. The line goes like this: g a a a a a a a | g a a g a a G (small = eight, capital = quarter). Are you suggesting to play g A A A a | g A g A G ? It surely would work, as the bass sounds nicer on longer tones.

When I do this kind of thing, I basically point my hand up over the fingerboard and play like an electric bass

I do it too, but that doesn't sound double bass enough to me; I get the sound I like by playing along the lenght of index of mid finger. Bass guitar 'perpendicular' plucking or even 'free stroke' gives me kind of electric sound I don't like much. But I see there are players that use this method nicely. I think I'm not one of them, I'd rather torture myself a month or two more with a classical method, as I can see it leads to more open options.

Thanks everyone for your tips!

 

[longfinger]

I'm not sure I understand. The line goes like this: g a a a a a a a | g a a g a a G (small = eight, capital = quarter). Are you suggesting to play g A A A a | g A g A G ? It surely would work, as the bass sounds nicer on longer tones.

I'd keep the quarters short. Like 8th notes with an 8th rest (but I don't like it notated like that!) Make sure the accents work with the drumming. In the last measure below the "a" with the accent "à" is hammered on.
|g a â . â . â . |g a â . â . â . |g a â . â . â . |g à a g à a g à |

 

[jj.833]

Thanks @longfinger I think I get it now. Rests in stead of too many notes. Air in stead of choke. Interesting thinking! I'll give it a try. It will probably not work with this song, but it might work with many others!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks, Chris, this is a great idea! It's so simple I cannot believe it didn't occur to me. I believe it is also in line with what John Paul Jones would do. Though, it would need a bit of planning the groove, as the sound of the fingered and open notes is quite different, and also when both notes sound, the bass is easy to get choked. I'd probably think of a good alternating rhythm pattern and will play it whole rock half of the song through.

I just sat down and tried this on the bass, and I found the following worked pretty well for your pattern of: g a a a a a a a | g a a g a a G

Where R=Rake and H=Hammer, try this:

The important thing for my right hand is that it's a lot easier to play a short burst of 8th notes than a long string of them. Playing it this way, the hammers and rakes provided enough rest to keep the hand from flaming out, and it's also transposable to the A and D strings for the phrase that starts on the IV chord.

 

[jj.833]

Wow. That's very nice of you, Chris!

'Mirrored' it also works on V, alternating E on A string, and open E octave lower.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Wow. That's very nice of you, Chris!

'Mirrored' it also works on V, alternating E on A string, and open E octave lower.

No worries. Little technical puzzles like this are a welcome break form the nonstop grading I'm doing this time of year.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

It's cool to learn new approaches. But some songs sound better with electric bass!

 

[jj.833]

But some songs sound better with electric bass!

That's what my bandmates say. Actually, they say everything sounds better with electric bass, because with electric bass you're one car less.
On the other hand, trumpets are very fond of the upright, despite the car. They don't mind more cars, especially when somebody else is driving and they can drink. Cheers

 

[The Biz]

I'd keep the quarters short. Like 8th notes with an 8th rest (but I don't like it notated like that!) Make sure the accents work with the drumming. In the last measure below the "a" with the accent "à" is hammered on.
|g a â . â . â . |g a â . â . â . |g a â . â . â . |g à a g à a g à |

I think this is always a wise 'compromise' that pays off, especially in dense guitar or horn heavy situations. It's nearly impossible to get an upright to "pump" like an electric playing similar lines. This approach conserves the energy the line is supposed to create.

 

[Stewie]

I am missing most of the middle finger on my right hand. If I have to play fast, I move my hand up the neck and play with pointer and ring, like I was on a Fender. It's probably my lack of technique, but it seems that the faster notes just don't have time to wake up on the DB

 

[Les Fret]

I think this is always a wise 'compromise' that pays off, especially in dense guitar or horn heavy situations. It's nearly impossible to get an upright to "pump" like an electric playing similar lines. This approach conserves the energy the line is supposed to create.

I agree. An upright lacks the punch of an electric bass. Especially when playing straight eights or sixteenths with repeated notes. Therefore it might work better to simplify the line. Although it is a good technical challenge to try to play it like the original. Also the E string generally has the least punch of all four on upright.

 

[Keith Rawlings]

If I have to play super fast I use three fingers on my right hand and I can play really fast 16th notes in this manner. My
Band covers Whole Lotta Rosie and I can easily roll through it on the DB. I used to play Paranoid in another band I was in and had no trouble galloping through that one using three fingers. I know it's not proper technique but it works when you have to play fast.

 

[Escucha]

Hi,
I am to play Rock'n'Roll in this arrangement with my big band. No band switching - we'd just play the tune, first half in rock and the second half in swing style (conductor's idea).

I want to play it respectfully to John Paul Jones original. I transcribed the line. I found that it's very hard to play it, as it's a stream of fast A eights on E string without much movement, and my right forearm gets stiff quite fast. I developed a practising technique which seems sensible to me. Described in the video here (the video is mirrored; I'm right handed).



I'm getting better at this, but my progress is to slow for my tastes. I imagine that this type of practising can lead to interesting results. Do you have any comments or any better learning method of such type of plucking?
Thanks a lot!

JPJ played this with a pick. Just learn it on a electric and try to adapt it the best you can to DB.