Double Bass Left handed double bass

[Steven Ayres]

Are Kay basses in the US sought after?

Kay basses have a large and reliable following, in Europe as well.

It wasn't "after WWII," by the way. American plywood basses got going in the early '30s; Kay came into the market in '37, and by '41 it had already made and sold more basses than any contemporary manufacturer ever would.

If you can share the serial number on your Kay, I'll get it registered.

 

[myleftbass]

No there is a talking point, some say you do, some say you don’t? However the bass I am working on is a solid spruce top. My question to James about the bass bar is for future bass in waiting for a conversion which is a laminate top.
Do you have any thoughts if to spring or not? The bass bar.
Cheers
Dominic

 

[myleftbass]

Kay basses have a large and reliable following, in Europe as well.

It wasn't "after WWII," by the way. American plywood basses got going in the early '30s; Kay came into the market in '37, and by '41 it had already made and sold more basses than any contemporary manufacturer ever would.

If you can share the serial number on your Kay, I'll get it registered.

Thanks for the updated knowledge. When I get back in the workshop I shall get the serial number. I didn’t know about registering them? Please tell me more.
Cheers
Dominic

 

[myleftbass]

Kinda off topic: I have one friend who play upright lefty. (He plays a righty Kay just strung backwards.). I periodicaly play with him in jams. We have pretty different styles which somehow complement each other.

I often have difficulty really understanding what another bassist is doing when I watch/listen to them. But with a lefty, it seems to make sense. It is like I'm looking in a mirror.

Just thought I'd toss that in...

Toss what you like in Ed, I am on a learning curve at the moment, all knowledge learnt from others is appreciated.
Regards
Dominic

 

[Steven Ayres]

No there is a talking point, some say you do, some say you don’t? However the bass I am working on is a solid spruce top. My question to James about the bass bar is for future bass in waiting for a conversion which is a laminate top.
Do you have any thoughts if to spring or not? The bass bar.
Cheers
Dominic

String pressure inevitably deforms the top to some extent, so just as we apply counterforce (truss rod) in a guitar neck to offset deformation, it makes engineering sense to add some spring to the bass bar so the top is where you want it to be under tension. It's my impression that ply tops are more subject to deformation at tension relative to carved tops, so this becomes more relevant with a ply top.

 

[ProfChris]

A naive question, but is it necessary to swap sides for the bass bar and soundpost?

I ask because for guitars it's accepted (and has been tested) that the entire top works as a single assembly. Thus conversion from righty to lefty doesn't require reversing all the bracing.

I understand that the soundpost couples top and back, but I'd guess that this makes them work as a single system likewise. If so (and the if is a guess, remember), the only reason I can think of for change is that bowed strokes for basses playing together might be out of phase (the lefty would be pulling the bridge away from the soundpost at the same time as the righty pushing it towards, and vice versa).

Does anyone know, or is this something which seems obviously necessary but has never been investigated?

 

[ProfChris]

In part answer to my own question, I see that Spirocores have a roughly 10% increase in tension from G to E, which might need more support under the E side bridge foot. However, some other sets have roughly equal tension for all four strings.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Dominic, you want to plane out as much of the old bar as possible. When you get down near the table, apply steam to release the glue but be as sparing as possible to avoid delamination.

ProfChris, pulling the string away from the bass bar yields a smaller sound than pulling toward the bar.

 

[myleftbass]

Thanks for that tip, very concerned about delamination using too much steam when removing the bass bar. I have not seen enough aged laminate tops to know about a susceptibility to deform under tension? So maybe Stephen is right. Certainly in the classical guitar making world the struts on the back of the guitar have built in tension to support a minor curve to the back of the instrument. Anyone fitted a bass bar to a laminate top? I have read some articles about to spring or not, but these were about carved tops.
Regards
Dominic

 

[james condino]

They are all getting up in age, so every old Kay bass is a little different. On some, all of the plies are in great condition; others are literally falling apart in your hands, so I try to do my best with what is sittig in front of me. Usually, anything I do is an improvement over what I started with. Some basses seem a bit more flexible, so they may get a sprung bassbar, while others are fine with a perfect fit. Any area that releases with steam will usually go right back in place if you clamp it back in position. Don't overthink it too much.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

I am *adamantly* against sprung bass bars, especially in plywood basses.

 

[james condino]

There is not a one size fits all solution.

Some old plywood basses have tops with a lot of structural integrity, while others are barely wet cardboard that would be better off in the burn pile, but...folks get emotionally attached to them. Many basses seem to work better with a little spring, others work fine with none. The last few years I've been doing some jedi level saves using split bassbars like a snake tongue that work very well for certain problem solving that a single rail will not fix.

Most of the time, when the top finally gets opened up and you fix a bar that has 3' of it hanging off into space rattling like a giant tuning fork, anything will improve the bass. You can always go big and then if you don't like it, and you used hot hide glue, take it off and make another. A nice bassbar blank costs less than a single string, or lunch at some overpriced hipster coffee shop, so it is not a big investment. No matter what you do, there are limits. An old Kay will never sound like a 300 year old Italian bass, or one of my new ones, but they have value and there are probably over 1000 of them on the job somewhere in the country tonight having a great time for the owner, so it is worth the effort.

Dominic: You or the rest of the crowd here are always welcome to give me a call at the shop and we can nerd out a bit about your project. We can cover a whole lot more information and laughter than we can typing.

 

[myleftbass]

They are all getting up in age, so every old Kay bass is a little different. On some, all of the plies are in great condition; others are literally falling apart in your hands, so I try to do my best with what is sittig in front of me. Usually, anything I do is an improvement over what I started with. Some basses seem a bit more flexible, so they may get a sprung bassbar, while others are fine with a perfect fit. Any area that releases with steam will usually go right back in place if you clamp it back in position. Don't overthink it too much.

Thank you James great, practical advice. Copying the original bass bar a good idea when making the new one?
Cheers
Dominic

 

[myleftbass]

There is not a one size fits all solution.

Some old plywood basses have tops with a lot of structural integrity, while others are barely wet cardboard that would be better off in the burn pile, but...folks get emotionally attached to them. Many basses seem to work better with a little spring, others work fine with none. The last few years I've been doing some jedi level saves using split bassbars like a snake tongue that work very well for certain problem solving that a single rail will not fix.

Most of the time, when the top finally gets opened up and you fix a bar that has 3' of it hanging off into space rattling like a giant tuning fork, anything will improve the bass. You can always go big and then if you don't like it, and you used hot hide glue, take it off and make another. A nice bassbar blank costs less than a single string, or lunch at some overpriced hipster coffee shop, so it is not a big investment. No matter what you do, there are limits. An old Kay will never sound like a 300 year old Italian bass, or one of my new ones, but they have value and there are probably over 1000 of them on the job somewhere in the country tonight having a great time for the owner, so it is worth the effort.

Dominic: You or the rest of the crowd here are always welcome to give me a call at the shop and we can nerd out a bit about your project. We can cover a whole lot more information and laughter than we can typing.

That would be really helpful, and very generous off you. Cool . In touch through your website I guess?

 

[walterw]

A naive question, but is it necessary to swap sides for the bass bar and soundpost?

my first thought too, what happens if you just go for it and set it up lefty without pulling off the top? how bad could it be? and does any sonic change matter more for pizz or for arco?

my (mostly uninformed) first guess is that since if i have this right the soundpost is kind of the vibrational "dead spot" on the top that everything else vibrates around, having the post under the E instead of the G means some possible low note volume loss, maybe an overly loud G string

i myself am a lucky lefty who got handed a righty cello in 5th grade, took to playing it righty with no problem and never looked back. i can appreciate the troubles of the left-handed string instrument player even while having avoided them myself

 

[BenWilliams]

Move the bass bar and sound post, cut a new bridge and nut, and what else?

You'd need a new fingerboard too if it has that flat side for the E string.

 

[Flamingo21]

A naive question, but is it necessary to swap sides for the bass bar and soundpost?

I'm sure my violin teacher explained to me why the bar is on the one side and the post on the other. But that's half a century ago and I don't really remember. It's something to do with the high string vibrating differently than the low string, and the bar and post influence how these vibrations are picked up by the wood of the instrument.

Is it necessary? Probably not. Is it advisable? Probably yes. I guess the results will vary from one instrument to the next.