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Live EQ
- Thread starter KingRazor
- Start date
I used one for a while for feedback control in a PA system, and it had a high-pitched whine that was faint, but audible, even with all filters bypassed.
Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Is there a guide like this for frequencies for different vocal ranges? (ie Soprano, Alto, Baritone?)
This is going to come off as smart-mouthed, but it is absolutely intended as kind advice from someone who was in your position years ago: at this stage, you shouldn't be touching the eq during the group's performances.
Asking what frequency you'd need to adjust for instruments X, Y, and Z is a bit like asking what frets bassists should play when songs go to the bridge, and then what frets go with choruses: it's treating as a technical question (what frequency do I always tweak) when the problem is at heart a musical one (how crowded is the 120-250 Hz in this arrangement? how does this player's bass rig and touch sit relative to this drummer's right foot? how heavily is the keys player leaning on her right hand? is the soloist a baritone or a soprano? what does this genre usually call for in terms of sonic density at different frequency bands? etc.)
It takes about as much time to learn how to be a decent mixer as it does to become a decent bassist, and then again as much time to stop being just decent and become a generally musical mixer.
You wouldn't want to be gigging with an accomplished band when you were just learning how to fret a note on bass, because then you'd be the guy ruining what could be a good band. Same deal at the mixing board, where when you're just finding your way around, running sound quickly becomes ruining sound.
In your shoes, I'd be following the advice I got coming up: shadow as many talented mixing engineers as you can. Watch how they set up for a session or a gig, what they listen for and change during line checks, setting monitor or headphones mixes, and mixing the first few tunes of a gig.
Also, it's easier than ever these days to find isolated tracks that will help develop your ears for what instruments might sound like in various genres. If you have access to recording software--even something like Garage Band--play around with levels, slot eq, compression, and effects there to develop your ears in a context where nobody's performance is at risk.
Asking what frequency you'd need to adjust for instruments X, Y, and Z is a bit like asking what frets bassists should play when songs go to the bridge, and then what frets go with choruses: it's treating as a technical question (what frequency do I always tweak) when the problem is at heart a musical one (how crowded is the 120-250 Hz in this arrangement? how does this player's bass rig and touch sit relative to this drummer's right foot? how heavily is the keys player leaning on her right hand? is the soloist a baritone or a soprano? what does this genre usually call for in terms of sonic density at different frequency bands? etc.)
It takes about as much time to learn how to be a decent mixer as it does to become a decent bassist, and then again as much time to stop being just decent and become a generally musical mixer.
You wouldn't want to be gigging with an accomplished band when you were just learning how to fret a note on bass, because then you'd be the guy ruining what could be a good band. Same deal at the mixing board, where when you're just finding your way around, running sound quickly becomes ruining sound.
In your shoes, I'd be following the advice I got coming up: shadow as many talented mixing engineers as you can. Watch how they set up for a session or a gig, what they listen for and change during line checks, setting monitor or headphones mixes, and mixing the first few tunes of a gig.
Also, it's easier than ever these days to find isolated tracks that will help develop your ears for what instruments might sound like in various genres. If you have access to recording software--even something like Garage Band--play around with levels, slot eq, compression, and effects there to develop your ears in a context where nobody's performance is at risk.
Don't worry, I know I'm not all that so I'm accepting any criticism at this point.
However, I'm not quite as big of a novice as I believe I came off as in my original post. I've been mixing twice a week for the past year and a half and I've gotten pretty good at mixing the way the worship leader wants me too.
This was by no means my own accomplishment. I got way more teaching and advice than any of our other sound guys. I had a lot of one on one chats with the worship leader and our primary sound tech. More so than any of that though, I know that the bulk of my mixing skill simply comes from yielding to the anointing God has placed on me to mix (I promise I won't get too spiritual on y'all).
Besides all that I got a LOT of practice. Now I have basic mixing down more or less, I still have plenty to learn though. That's why I came here, to learn about an area of sound I wasn't yet very familiar with. Just EQing with that list of suggested frequencies has helped a lot, not only is our sound better, but now I understand EQ a lot better.
I know I'm still new to this and I still have to ask around to learn these kind of things. I didn't go to school for this or anything, I just said I'm interested and went with the flow. Now especially since our main sound guy has stepped down I really want to learn as much about sound as I can.
Thanks for the advice, really. I guess there's always something I can do to improve.
Sounds like you’re getting a handle on things, King.
When mixing at church, IMO the priority is that the vocals should be prominently on top in the mix. After all, the lyrics are what carry the message, and it shouldn’t be buried under wailing guitars or drums. As I noted in my previous post, EQ to make the voices sound as natural as possible; too much low-end, especially in male voices, is a common problem in PA systems. Also, it might be necessary to boost the sibilants up a smidge during worship, to help the words sound distinct over the band. However, this will make the sibilants a bit “hot” when the band stops playing. Something to keep in mind if the same mics are used both during and after worship.
Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Yep that's always the number one thing the worship leader tells me is to turn up the vocals. I run them a lot hotter than I used to so it's not nearly as often that they have to tell me to bring them up. Lately it's just been a matter of trying to overcome the limitations of our PA.Sounds like youre getting a handle on things, King.
When mixing at church, IMO the priority is that the vocals should be prominently on top in the mix. After all, the lyrics are what carry the message, and it shouldnt be buried under wailing guitars or drums. As I noted in my previous post, EQ to make the voices sound as natural as possible; too much low-end, especially in male voices, is a common problem in PA systems. Also, it might be necessary to boost the sibilants up a smidge during worship, to help the words sound distinct over the band. However, this will make the sibilants a bit hot when the band stops playing. Something to keep in mind if the same mics are used both during and after worship.
Wouldn't you EQ female vocalists different from male? Also, I would figure an alto would be EQ'd differently than a soprano. Are there some general suggestions for those?
It’s hard to give any hard, fast rules for voice EQ, except for “watch the low end and sibilants,” because voices cover such a tremendous range. That said, typically I find that male voices seem to need the most attention – that tendency-for-booming-low -end thing. Although you might find some of that in female voices on occasion, to a much-lesser extent.
Basically, you have to just listen to each voice. As noted, typically it’s only the low- or high-end that will need attention, but you’ll occasionally find exceptions. For instance, my wife has a rather “sharp” voice that cuts through a mix like a knife, so I often fish for a cut in the 2-4 kHz range to mellow her out a bit. Another male singer we have has kind of a mushy indistinct voice, so I try to boost him a bit in the 2-4 kHz range a tad to give him more “texture” and clarity. Our pastor has sibilants that are more pronounced that most people, that seems to cut through no matter what mic he’s using. So I cut back on the 6-8 kHz range with him.
So again, you just have to listen to each voice. That said, the lead singer is the most important. Generally, it’s unnecessary to make EQing like “making a movie” for each and every voice, aside from keeping them free of unnecessary low end that only serves to muddy up the mix.
Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
That's what I'm asking about. I know there are no hard and fast rules, I just want some suggestions I can work with. The better starting point I have the easier it will be for me to figure out how to refine my mixing. I'm glad you explain what each of these frequency changes do as opposed to just saying "do this to this frequency because I say so and it will sound great!", that's the part that's helpful. Before I learned anything about EQ I might not have known that you can add some texture by boosting the 2-4kHz range.
Thanks for all the help so far everyone.
One other question I have is in regards to high pass filters. We appear to be using them on the majority of our inputs. I believe I understand their basic function, cut the booming low end noises (on microphones) or save the speakers from extremely low frequencies. Any general ideas on how these are commonly used? (Note: We're sending everything below 100Hz or so to the sub to save the loud speakers as they're not quite powerful enough to handle the load too well, plus that's what the sub is for anyway...)
That is correct. Typically they should be used on all inputs except bass guitar and perhaps kick drum. (And a music playback component.) Basically all other channels should be bass-limited. If everything on stage is generating lot of bass, you end up with a muddy mix.
Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
Alright, good to know. Now, I have the option of setting the frequency of the filter. We have the vocals at about 180 Hz, and the instruments anywhere from 53 to 200 Hz. I'm not exactly sure how low or high these should be. I have no idea where they were set originally when we first got the board and did the initial EQ.
I recall seeing a chart in some console manual. Maybe a Yorkville, A&H, or Mackie mid format? What I recall is a graph of various instrument & vocal ranges above a piano keyboard.
I don't see any suggestions in the manual for our board. :\
I'd still like to know of any suggestions/general uses of frequency settings for high pass filters. Like I said, we have them anywhere from 53 Hz to 200 Hz and I'd like to know where they should be set and why (if I know the why I can figure out the what)
As I mentioned, if there’s too much low end in all the channels you’ll have a muddy mix. IOW, you want to keep the channels clear of bass output that don’t have any business having any bass output.
For vocals, I’d go with 200 Hz. Unless you’re dealing with a quartet that has a bass singer, there’s no reason for a vocal mic to be generating anything below that.
It’s a bit tricky with guitars and keyboards, because they can manipulate their own tone. Basically, the lowest fundamental on a guitar is about 80 Hz. However, electric guitars especially often boost the low end. To counteract that, I’d move the HP up to about 125 Hz, or higher if need be. With an acoustic guitar you might be safe with 80 Hz, but if it sounds like you’re getting too much low end from it, raise the frequency.
Keyboards – hard to say, because they can sound thin or bassy depending on the setting being used, but 80 Hz is a good start. Adjust as needed.
Drums, I’d go with 60 Hz for the kick, something like 80-100 for the floor tom, 90-150 for wing toms. Cymbal mics, 200 Hz.
Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club
Pedulla Club #45
I gave a quick look around & can't (yet) find what I think I remembered. Here's some info that may help you:
http://www.behindthemixer.com/content/eq-vocals-101-fix-and-mix
Here's something pretty close, but it doesn't have the typical vocal ranges broken out:
Link Removed
If you trust Wikipedia, there's this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_range
+1 to the chart that JohnMCA72 posted. This has helped me quite a bit.
Otherwise - +1 everything that WayneP has said.
Something that helped me ... if you man the board during any practices, pick a channel (vocal or instrument) and write down the starting EQ settings. Using that channel, move the eq and see what happens as you do this. Find what sounds the most natural. If you can't get it to sound right, start flat, then try, try again. By making some really bad sounding EQ'ed channels, I learned a lot about what each EQ knob did to each instrument/vocal's sound. Oh, and make sure you let the worship leader know what you are going to do prior to doing this.
Otherwise - +1 everything that WayneP has said.
Something that helped me ... if you man the board during any practices, pick a channel (vocal or instrument) and write down the starting EQ settings. Using that channel, move the eq and see what happens as you do this. Find what sounds the most natural. If you can't get it to sound right, start flat, then try, try again. By making some really bad sounding EQ'ed channels, I learned a lot about what each EQ knob did to each instrument/vocal's sound. Oh, and make sure you let the worship leader know what you are going to do prior to doing this.
I've found that if I jump in blind it's easy to get lost in all the EQ and I wind up finding a lot more ways to make it sound bad than good. Having a starting point like the list Wayne provided helped me out. I'm trying to stick to the "He who EQs least EQs best rule" a bit and trying to minimize the amount of EQ that has to be done. Usually if I mess with it at all now I use it to compensate for a lack of something (or to squelch frequencies that are too noisy). For instance, we have an old Spector bass that sounds pretty good but gives off a lot of clacky finger noise. I have a very narrow and very steep cut in volume at around 2.5k and that helps cut it out. I also like to boost the 400-1000Hz range to boost the fundamentals of the bass because the higher notes tend to get lost in the mix.
not to be off my rocker, or push this thread off topic, but i don't see what's not to "trust" about wikipedia, with a vocal range list. What, do you not beleive that a soprano is really c4-c6?
if the OP would like, i could sit down at my keyboard and a graph and come up with something that shows ranges of vocals, guitar, and bass overlayed on a piano keyboard. might take me a while..
EDIT: Actually , i'm just gonig to do it either way. Would be useful, who knows?
Can't be anymore of a waste of time than the spreadsheets I've been making of intervals and scales...
Just crank the kick drum way up then wonder why the bass sounds like **** when you brighten it into a trebly mess.
