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Looking at Fretless to Augment URB

Laidback1

Laidback1

Feb 13, 2011
15
8
Central Texas
#1
Play in an acoustic folk trio and an acoustic band that plays Country Rock (Eagles, Denver, CSN&Y, and other with lots of vocal harmonies). They like for me to use the URB but we also play some venues where the URB isn't ideal due to size of stage, and other issues from time-to-time. Plus as I get older there's just some times that I don't want to schlep the URB around.

Looking to get a fretless option that kind of keeps the URB vibe and is able to approximate the URB tone. Got a chance to look at an Emerald Balor with wood veneer (it was fretted) but it just didn't "do it" for me. Nice bass that plays well; however, I/they want something wood to keep with the acoustic look. I think it was the ergonomic weird shape that I didn't bond with. I have a fretted acoustic bass made by Olav Loef that I've used on a couple of gigs. I love playing it and it does well in a living room but really doesn't cut it on stage.

Thinking about Takemini TB10 or a Rob Allen Fretless model. I can't locate anyone around me to try out and you just don't find them laying around in guitar stores. Just basing my thoughts on what I see and hear on the web. The Rob Allen doesn't look acoustic but it sure produces a great tone. Neither are cheap so I'm finding it hard to pull the trigger. Are there other options I'm missing? Those that have played the TB10 or RA what are your thoughts.

I appreciate the help. Wanting to get soon. Have lots of gigs coming up late January/February so I want to have a chance to get it and get comfortable with it.

Mark
 
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#2
Assume you're going to be either micing or plugging in. There are quite a few acoustic basses, including fretless, that can get you a good meaty sound through an amp. I'll even sell you one. The big problem with abgs is unplugged volume, and that wont be an issue for you in this.

For the price of a TB-10, or even half that, you can get very nice amped sound and super playabilty. Look at Guild's big bodies, Martins if you can find one, higher end Breedloves...with the right amp and settings you'll approximate URB tone (peace, people, I didnt say "match").
 
#5
I think your bandmates will thank you. You will enjoy the convenience, adaptability and superior tone of the electric fretless. Other than losing 'the look' of an upright bass, there aren't really any downsides in my mind.

I would however skip getting an ABG that needs to be plugged in and just go straight to a proper electric fretless.
 
#7
Not only does it sound great, but there's a tactile aspect to the B/TB10. The FB radius is close to that of a DB. It can almost be bowed. IMO, this separates the Takamine from all the other ABG's. Additionally, it has an endpin, so vertical play is possible if desired.

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#8
mikeoso said:
Assume you're going to be either micing or plugging in. There are quite a few acoustic basses, including fretless, that can get you a good meaty sound through an amp. I'll even sell you one. The big problem with abgs is unplugged volume, and that wont be an issue for you in this.

For the price of a TB-10, or even half that, you can get very nice amped sound and super playabilty. Look at Guild's big bodies, Martins if you can find one, higher end Breedloves...with the right amp and settings you'll approximate URB tone (peace, people, I didnt say "match").
Click to expand...

I have played the Loef Acoustic Bass plugged in for gigs. Has K&K pickup running thru K&K Pure XLR Preamp into PA and have also played it in gigs using my Acoustic Image Upshot Combo that I use for my URB. The Loef needs a good setup and I'm having problem finding the right strings for it. It's short scale (29" scale length). I changed out the originals (not sure what they were) and replaced them with Ernie Ball Earth Woods and they just sound too "jangly" on the bass (that's the opinion of the band members too). All the other strings I can find are heavier gauge and I just don't know if they're good for this smaller scale bass. It looks like you have quite a few acoustic basses. What strings do you use on yours (especially if any of them are shorter scale)?

Thanks for your help!
Mark
 
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#11
What about a Gold Tone Micro Bass? Because of the super-fat Thundergut strings, they sound way more like than an upright than any conventional, metal-string ABG, and are orders of magnitude cheaper than an RA Mouse. They come in fretless versions in both 23" and 25" scale and cost about $400. Loads of videos of them on YouTube. I have only played one in a store, but most owners seem very happy with them.
 
#12
Laidback1 said:
Play in an acoustic folk trio and an acoustic band that plays Country Rock (Eagles, Denver, CSN&Y, and other with lots of vocal harmonies). They like for me to use the URB but we also play some venues where the URB isn't ideal due to size of stage, and other issues from time-to-time. Plus as I get older there's just some times that I don't want to schlep the URB around.

Looking to get a fretless option that kind of keeps the URB vibe and is able to approximate the URB tone. Got a chance to look at an Emerald Balor with wood veneer (it was fretted) but it just didn't "do it" for me. Nice bass that plays well; however, I/they want something wood to keep with the acoustic look. I think it was the ergonomic weird shape that I didn't bond with. I have a fretted acoustic bass made by Olav Loef that I've used on a couple of gigs. I love playing it and it does well in a living room but really doesn't cut it on stage.

Thinking about Takemini TB10 or a Rob Allen Fretless model. I can't locate anyone around me to try out and you just don't find them laying around in guitar stores. Just basing my thoughts on what I see and hear on the web. The Rob Allen doesn't look acoustic but it sure produces a great tone. Neither are cheap so I'm finding it hard to pull the trigger. Are there other options I'm missing? Those that have played the TB10 or RA what are your thoughts.

I appreciate the help. Wanting to get soon. Have lots of gigs coming up late January/February so I want to have a chance to get it and get comfortable with it.

Mark
Click to expand...


One big difference is in the note envelope. URB has a lot of thump and short decay. Typically a fretless is going to lack the thump and have much longer decay.

I am surprised no one suggested the Epiphone Zenith.
 
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#13
00001.jpg


i started on upright and have played fretless EB forever, and IME: they aren't even close in overall 'sound', as wasnex suggested, above. that said: there are technique changes a player can make that can help deliver a better DB 'vibe'.
 
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#15
JRA said:
View attachment 3641962

i started on upright and have played fretless EB forever, and IME: they aren't even close in overall 'sound', as wasnex suggested, above. that said: there are technique changes a player can make that can help deliver a better DB 'vibe'.
Click to expand...


Oddly enough I always found it easy to switch between bass guitar and string bass, but I could never get comfortable on fretless BG. I use one finger per fret on BG and I don't have the reach to use this technique on fretless.

But even using Simandl fingering, I really struggle to play in tune on fretless BG. I have tried on a few really fine instruments for several months and my intonation never settled. However, give me an NS Design electric upright and I am good to go.

I played a US series NS Design 6-string for about 15 years and really loved the instrument's unique voice. I was absolutely nothing like a string bass though. If anything, it sounded less like a string bass than a fretless bass guitar. Almost no thump and practically endless sustain. I think what I miss most was the B string, which produced a really strong fundamental. This was not my preferred instrument for 40's era jazz or standards out of the real book, but it was great for more modern stuff.
 
#16
Laidback1 said:
Play in an acoustic folk trio and an acoustic band that plays Country Rock (Eagles, Denver, CSN&Y, and other with lots of vocal harmonies). They like for me to use the URB but we also play some venues where the URB isn't ideal due to size of stage, and other issues from time-to-time. Plus as I get older there's just some times that I don't want to schlep the URB around.

Looking to get a fretless option that kind of keeps the URB vibe and is able to approximate the URB tone. Got a chance to look at an Emerald Balor with wood veneer (it was fretted) but it just didn't "do it" for me. Nice bass that plays well; however, I/they want something wood to keep with the acoustic look. I think it was the ergonomic weird shape that I didn't bond with. I have a fretted acoustic bass made by Olav Loef that I've used on a couple of gigs. I love playing it and it does well in a living room but really doesn't cut it on stage.

Thinking about Takemini TB10 or a Rob Allen Fretless model. I can't locate anyone around me to try out and you just don't find them laying around in guitar stores. Just basing my thoughts on what I see and hear on the web. The Rob Allen doesn't look acoustic but it sure produces a great tone. Neither are cheap so I'm finding it hard to pull the trigger. Are there other options I'm missing? Those that have played the TB10 or RA what are your thoughts.

I appreciate the help. Wanting to get soon. Have lots of gigs coming up late January/February so I want to have a chance to get it and get comfortable with it.

Mark
Click to expand...

I had a similar dilemma years back with two different acoustic rock bands. They both loved me playing DB, but both eventually got too loud. I got frustrated with fighting feedback, and then one started playing at really tight clubs with rowdy people, so the DB was no longer a match. I ended up with a used Veillette Mark IV fretless (similar to a Rob Allen) and two different Ergo electric upgrade basses (ERBs). Ease of use and getting 75% of the way there tone-wise goes to the Veillette. The other 25% with the Ergo is DB string action, thump, and bowing, none of which you can really get on a standard electric bass IMO. Although I love the Veillette and can't imagine ever parting with it, I've played several other similar style basses from other builders (3 or 4?) and as long as they've got a decent piezo system and tape wounds, they are all very similar IMO.
 
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#19
gscroggin said:
I had a similar dilemma years back with two different acoustic rock bands. They both loved me playing DB, but both eventually got too loud. I got frustrated with fighting feedback, and then one started playing at really tight clubs with rowdy people, so the DB was no longer a match. I ended up with a used Veillette Mark IV fretless (similar to a Rob Allen) and two different Ergo electric upgrade basses (ERBs). Ease of use and getting 75% of the way there tone-wise goes to the Veillette. The other 25% with the Ergo is DB string action, thump, and bowing, none of which you can really get on a standard electric bass IMO. Although I love the Veillette and can't imagine ever parting with it, I've played several other similar style basses from other builders (3 or 4?) and as long as they've got a decent piezo system and tape wounds, they are all very similar IMO.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info! Helps!
 
#20
I've owned both the B10 and RA Mouse. My vote goes for the Mouse hands down.... on a few provisos.

1. It's completely different from anything else out there, and requires learning a new approach and new techniques to play it well.
I've heard other people play mine and they make it sound awful. Then I play it and their jaw drops.

2. High action, left hand muting, judicious EQing & finding the best possible amp to complete the signal chain, etc it'll approximate an amplified DB live IF you know how (few people do IME).
Expect to go amp/cab shopping if you're really serious about one coz it's very fussy about what you play it through.

3. It's 30" scale and you've got to enjoy playing that scale Fretless and commit to developing good intonation to be really relaxed while playing it.
I've played 34" Fretless EB's since forever and this took a lot of adjusting. What helped massively was to buy & regularly play 30" fretted basses (60's Aria Hollowbody, '67 Coronado II, Duesenberg Starplayer, and Danelectro Longhorn).
The Dano has the most similar ergonomics but the Mouse is orders of magnitude more refined. If you really hate the scale/weight of the Dano you'll probably struggle to bond with the Mouse.

4. I also play DB and own a DB and I simply prefer to take the Mouse to Big Band (Jazz, Pop, Rock, Funk tunes) now that I've developed serious chops on it. Very versatile - from DB-like vibe, to P-Bass punch, Hofner thump & FL J mwah are all possible from it with HPF, Comp, OD, Fingerstyle & Pick techniques.
I eventually stopped doubling on UB & EB at gigs and just used the Mouse. Load in/out was SOOOO much easier.


The B10 I could play immediately in Upright position and loved it. It is an exemplary Acoustic URB but didn't have the versatility of the Mouse IME. It suited a 5-pce Jazz combo I was in but got easily lost in the mix as the gig got louder. Had huge range but had to work at developing/maintaining intonation above 10th position.

There are 5-string RA Mouses out there (E-C) for higher range/soloing. I think Rob recommends 33" or above for B-G tuning these days to get a really strong low B.


Godin A4 was nice but the Mouse really takes the cake (or cheese) IME. (Played in shops, never owned one).


I had a FL Kala U-Bass for a while. Played thru a SansAmp Para-Driver it had a phenomenal tone at home but got easily lost in the mix as the volume went up.
You have to really enjoy that scale Fretless to want to play one - I didn't. It was a very small/light backup bass for gigs but it never got played.


Maybe ask in the Rob Allen thread if anyone lives near you to try one out.
Show Us Your Rob Allen Basses Part IV
 
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