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Major vs. Minor Scale?

#21
rydin4lifebass said:
but in CMajor they're Major chords, not minor ... so kinda different
Click to expand...

No. Look at your first post. You spelled C maj out right there. Lol. The naturally occurring chords inherent to C major and A minor are the same. I thought we cleared that up?

In Amin, you're talking imin-ivmin-vmin
In Cmaj, you're talking vimin-iimin-iiimin

Same sounds, different functions depending in what key you are in. Chords function differently in different keys.

What you need to do is HEAR this stuff. When was the last time you played a chord progression at a piano or guitar?
 
#23
rydin4lifebass said:
So obviously those will sound different but does it matter if I play I - IV - V in CMajor versus III - VI - VII in Aminor?..thats the same exact thing right?
Click to expand...

True... but you have to consider the context of a chord progression. The most common progression is 1 4 5 1 (i avoided Roman numerals because it doesn't matter if its M or m) 6 doesn't necessarily flow into 7 as nicely as 6 going to 2.2 would go to 5 and 5 to 1. It's part of the circle of fifths progression and is best understood on a piano. I suggest listening to some audio examples. They are all over the net. A full circle fifths pattern in C Maj. is I - IV - viio - iii - vi - ii - V - I. The bass moves up and down in fourth/fifth motion because 4 and 5 are perfects. Bass notes can bounce around, the melody tends to move by step and half step. The inner two voices (tenor and alto) move sorta like the melody, movement by thirds is common, and their parts DO NOT cross. If you do have a leap in the melody going up, you immediately go down in the next note. There are A LOT of rules to voicing, and its pretty useful to know. But don't stress it too much, understand how bass works first, then melody.
 
#24
this might help;
think of these scales as a group of whole steps and half steps. If you start on C which is the root note (and this applies to every other key too) C to D is a whole step. D to E is also a whole step but then E to F is a half step for example since there is no E sharp for F flat (same with B to C). So the major scale (in every key) goes like this; Whole Step- Whole Step - Half Step- Whole Step- Whole Step- Whole Step- Half Step.
When you start to 'hear' the scale this way it will help you play the major scale in any key since this group of whole steps and half steps applies consistently in every key.
Now as far as playing the relative minor scale (aka the aeolian mode or 6th mode of the major scale), starting at A you will notice it goes like this tonally;
Whole Step - Half Step- Whole Step- Whole Step- Half Step- Whole Step- Whole Step
So C major uses the same notes as Am but just starting the scale on the 6th note of C major instead of on C so it sounds different tonally. This is the same for every mode. Start Cmaj on the second note "D" and continue on D E F G A B C you will notice the "major scale" now sounds different again even though you are using the same exact notes (just starting on a different root note) so now we have the dorian mode since you started on the second note of C major. Listen now how the scale sounds (dorian mode) Whole Step- Half Step- Whole Step- Whole Step- Whole Step- Half Step- Whole Step. It changes tonally each time you start the "same" major scale (same exact notes) but just on the next note of the scale and so on. Start on the 3rd note E and you then have E phrigian mode- still Cmaj but starting on the 3rd note. The whole step half step sequence now again sounds different using the same notes of C maj. (these 2 modes Dorian and Phrigian are also "minor scales" just different sounding)

Hope I didnt confuse you too much but this is what really helped me to understand this scale/mode stuff. Every scale is based off the major scale in how we "spell it out" so in Theory its crucial that we understand it. Also singing them out while practicing (which I should do but never remember) helps to hear the whole step half step intervals getting you familiar with their sound as well.

Dave
 
#26
NOW..to really confuse myself, haha. .. I also have written down a few blues progressions as follows:

1-1-1-1
4-4-1-1
2-5-1-1

so in C Major this would be

C-C-C-C
F-F-C-C
D-G-C-C

And in A minor it would be
A-A-A-A
D-D-A-A
B-E-A-A


Is that correct? Also, it seems that in A Major, the same sequence would be followed as A minor since the 1-2-4-5 are the same????
 
#27
I think Febs meant that the key of C major has these chords.

A chord's function in the key is what gives it it's sound. Although you could play exactly the same chords in a section of a piece that's in a different key (ignoring any modulations - permanent or temporary), their function would be harmonicaly different in the context of the piece.

Imagine a blues in G, it will quite likely begin with a G (ignore all chord extensions for simplicity including 7ths). This will most definately sound like the harmonic resolution point of the song - chord I - the tonic. This will now change to a C chord as the next chord in the blues...
Now play a country piece in C which is almost guranteed to have a G going to the C at some point.

Do these sound the same? They are the same notes, same chords, same order - but different function and therefore different sound (the first being I - IV, the second being V - I).

The difference in function not only changes the sound, but also the way in which the chord is approached melodicaly (a good bass line can often be considered in terms of a melodic line even when not soloing) and rhythmically too.
 
#28
rydin4lifebass said:
NOW..to really confuse myself, haha. .. I also have written down a few blues progressions as follows:

1-1-1-1
4-4-1-1
2-5-1-1

so in C Major this would be

C-C-C-C
F-F-C-C
D-G-C-C

And in A minor it would be
A-A-A-A
D-D-A-A
B-E-A-A


Is that correct? Also, it seems that in A Major, the same sequence would be followed as A minor since the 1-2-4-5 are the same????
Click to expand...



Standard 12 bar blues changes, whether major or minor, are not exactly in a key in the older usage of the word "key" which refers to diatonic harmony. When we talk about a blues being in a key, it's a different meaning of the word "key", which is better described as tonal center. It really just tells you what the home chord or tonality is for the song, but the song uses chords that don't come exclusively from the scale implied by that home chord.

For a typical blues, all of the chords are 7ths. For minor blues, usually the V is a 7th. There are no II chords in a standard 12 bar blues. In C the changes are C7 C7 C7 C7 F7 F7 C7 C7 G7 F7 C7 G7

The reason tonal center matters here is that there is no major scale which when harmonized as a series of chords including the seventh interval has 3 different dominant chords in it, nor is there a major scale that has a dominant chord which is a fifth above a minor chord; so, you can see that you've left the realm of chord progressions that are related to one underlying major scale.
 
#29
locriansharpsec said:
this might help;
think of these scales as a group of whole steps and half steps. If you start on C which is the root note (and this applies to every other key too) C to D is a whole step. D to E is also a whole step but then E to F is a half step for example since there is no E sharp for F flat (same with B to C). So the major scale (in every key) goes like this; Whole Step- Whole Step - Half Step- Whole Step- Whole Step- Whole Step- Half Step.
When you start to 'hear' the scale this way it will help you play the major scale in any key since this group of whole steps and half steps applies consistently in every key.
Now as far as playing the relative minor scale (aka the aeolian mode or 6th mode of the major scale), starting at A you will notice it goes like this tonally;
Whole Step - Half Step- Whole Step- Whole Step- Half Step- Whole Step- Whole Step
So C major uses the same notes as Am but just starting the scale on the 6th note of C major instead of on C so it sounds different tonally. This is the same for every mode. Start Cmaj on the second note "D" and continue on D E F G A B C you will notice the "major scale" now sounds different again even though you are using the same exact notes (just starting on a different root note) so now we have the dorian mode since you started on the second note of C major. Listen now how the scale sounds (dorian mode) Whole Step- Half Step- Whole Step- Whole Step- Whole Step- Half Step- Whole Step. It changes tonally each time you start the "same" major scale (same exact notes) but just on the next note of the scale and so on. Start on the 3rd note E and you then have E phrigian mode- still Cmaj but starting on the 3rd note. The whole step half step sequence now again sounds different using the same notes of C maj. (these 2 modes Dorian and Phrigian are also "minor scales" just different sounding)

Hope I didnt confuse you too much but this is what really helped me to understand this scale/mode stuff. Every scale is based off the major scale in how we "spell it out" so in Theory its crucial that we understand it. Also singing them out while practicing (which I should do but never remember) helps to hear the whole step half step intervals getting you familiar with their sound as well.

Dave
Click to expand...

Looking at C Major..the 6th mode is A Aeolian..according to my book, the Aeolian as a flat 3, flat 6, and flat 7...meaning if we have A major the notes are A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A so in comparison, the 3 (C#), 6 (F#), and 7 (G#) are flattened.

In the same way, C major is G mixolydian because G major is G-A-B-C-D-E-F# ... the 7th is flattened to fit into C Major...that right?
 
#31
While it may be more advanced at this point, at least an overview of the Modes might clear things up for you. Studying modes you will, for example, see that these scales all use the same notes:

C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian

They all use the same notes:
C - D - E - F - G - A - B

But that does not mean that you can just play any one with a given chord. For instance, if a C Ionian (major) is being played and you come in with an A Aeolian scale, it's not going to sound right. The tonal center is different, so are the thirds (minor vs. major); they are very different. However, you can use notes in the A Aeolian pattern while playing along with a C major just as long as you keep the tonal center on the C. In fact, any of the other above mentioned scales can be used in the same fashion. The modes taught me how to look at the entire fretboard as a huge selection of notes to be played for any given chord. It really expands your choices.
 
#32
Those chords are right, except that instead of diminished the chord would be half-diminished (i.e. root, minor 3rd, diminished 5th, minor 7th), which is also known as minor 7th flat 5. Diminished chords have a diminished 7th (which is the equivalent of a major 6th) instead of minor 7th.

To answer your question, I would tell you to learn the seven modes so you can understand why those chords are constructed the way they are. In fact, my teacher taught me modes before he taught me triads and 7th chords, so that I could build 7th chords from an entire scale quite easily (it has a HUGE impact on your understanding of their placement within the scale). Then, all you need to understand is that the major scale begins on the Ionian mode and that the natural minor scale starts on the Aeolian mode, and you'll understand why the two scales have different orders of chords. That will also let you use modes regardless of which scale you're in.

Seriously, modes are amazing; no other aspect of music theory gives you a more complete understanding of scales and how to use them, or a more solid base for learning chords. From there all you need to learn is the circle of fifths and the keys on a piano and BANG, you know every single scale there is without having to learn them all note-for-note.
 
#33
I'm working on the modes now...kinda getting it, kinda not. I'm not getting the "math" on it. Let's say a E mixolydian is an A major with the root shifted to E.
A major is A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A
E major is E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D# - E
The mixolydian mode has a flat 7. So we flatten the 7 of E major to D and now we have:
E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D - E and when shifted to A as the root we have
A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G# -A.............same as
A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A ( A Major)....correct?
 
#34
In the same way, I can say that B Aeolian is a D major with root note shifted to B.
So B major scale is B - C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A# - B
Aeolian has a b3-b6-b7... D G A
And we're left with B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A-B (Which is a D major with the rote shifted to B)

So the easy way to do this is to just move the root note and keep the scale notes as is, but to understand, we have to know what the differences between notes is (ie, what is flattened and what is sharpened).

Yes?
 
#35
rydin4lifebass said:
I'm working on the modes now...kinda getting it, kinda not. I'm not getting the "math" on it. Let's say a E mixolydian is an A major with the root shifted to E.
A major is A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A
E major is E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D# - E
The mixolydian mode has a flat 7. So we flatten the 7 of E major to D and now we have:
E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D - E and when shifted to A as the root we have
A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G# -A.............same as
A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A ( A Major)....correct?
Click to expand...

You're not quite right there. What you need to understand is that if you're playing in A major and the mode you're playing is E Mixolydian, you're not playing with E as the root, you're starting the scale on the 5th degree. This is very important to visualise as it will instantly make sense of why the notes are all the same.

Now, onto your question. By flattening the 7th of E major you are turning that mode from Ionian into Mixolydian, which means that the Ionian mode of that scale (AKA the "root note" mode) is B. This means that the mode starting on A is Locrian, which gives you the following notes:
A - Bb - C - D - Eb - F - G - A

The scale which that mode belongs to is then termed "B major".

EDIT: reading your post again, it looks like your confusion has caused some ambiguity. Basically, you've taken the A major scale and moved the root to the E (the Mixolydian mode), AKA the 5th degree. You've then asked that if you move the root back to A, would it be the A major scale again (starting on the root degree of the scale, AKA the Ionian mode). The short answer is yes. My initial response was assuming that you were changing E mode from Ionian to Mixolydian, which it seemed like you were.

rydin4lifebass said:
In the same way, I can say that B Aeolian is a D major with root note shifted to B.
So B major scale is B - C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A# - B
Aeolian has a b3-b6-b7... D G A
And we're left with B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A-B (Which is a D major with the rote shifted to B)

So the easy way to do this is to just move the root note and keep the scale notes as is, but to understand, we have to know what the differences between notes is (ie, what is flattened and what is sharpened).

Yes?
Click to expand...

Now you're talking, THAT is correct. Modes are about taking the same notes in the same scale, and just starting from a different note (i.e. using a different note as the root). This results in different intervals which basically just have to be learned raw in order for you to be familiar with the modes in full. You seem like you're onto that though which is good. Top Tip: learn the characteristic intervals for each mode to be able to use them in a compositional scenario better.

Again, learn that the natural minor scale simply starts on Aeolian instead of Ionian. Makes working through minor scales just as easy as Major, and allows you to quickly recall relative major/minor scales rather than just parallel scales ("relative" meaning same notes but different root, "parallel" meaning different notes but same root).

Next, I recommend you learn the circle of fifths to easily recall how many sharps/flats there are in each scale, and learn piano keys to easily visualise what those sharps and flats actually are.
 
#36
rydin4lifebass said:
I'm working on the modes now...kinda getting it, kinda not. I'm not getting the "math" on it.
Click to expand...

You're half way there. But you are trying to understand SOUND through an explanation you don't fully understand. You are like a learning baby reading grammar books instead of beginning to really understand the words you've heard your parents use for years and years.

Books will teach you, but you need to put it into practice by playing music with others. From your comments, it's obvious you never play with anyone. And that is the whole point.
 
#37
PocketGroove82 said:
You're half way there. But you are trying to understand SOUND through an explanation you don't fully understand. You are like a learning baby reading grammar books instead of beginning to really understand the words you've heard your parents use for years and years.

Books will teach you, but you need to put it into practice by playing music with others. From your comments, it's obvious you never play with anyone. And that is the whole point.
Click to expand...

I think it's actually quite healthy to spend some time alone learning music theory before you tackle music in the real world. That way when you start to break things down and work with practical tools, well, you have more of those tools you can use, don't you?

My advice is to spend some time learning theory and not let anything interfere with that. Once you can comfortably recall scales, modes, maybe some chords, and other theoretical fundamentals, start cementing those things in by applying them in a band. Learning the practical side of music is just as huge as theory so it's better to not chop and change your priorities too much, or else you'll tend to forget useful information.
 
#38
Not to sound stupid, but I was hoping thsi would help me improvise iwth others. I sat down with a guitar and drummer once (friends of mine) and they were jamming and I just sat there...no idea what to play, where to start or what to use...nor any idea where that comes from which is why I'm concentrating on theory a lot more now.

practicing again, E Aeolian is a G Major scale with the root shifted to E. I could simply look at the G Major, start on E and say E - F# - G - A - B - C - D but to understand it, I can take E major as E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D# - E. The Aeolian (6) mode has a flattened 3, 6, 7 so I'm left with an E major scale with a flattened 3, 6, 7 which is the same as G major chord with the root shifted to the E.
 
#39
rydin4lifebass said:
Not to sound stupid, but I was hoping thsi would help me improvise iwth others. I sat down with a guitar and drummer once (friends of mine) and they were jamming and I just sat there...no idea what to play, where to start or what to use...nor any idea where that comes from which is why I'm concentrating on theory a lot more now.

practicing again, E Aeolian is a G Major scale with the root shifted to E. I could simply look at the G Major, start on E and say E - F# - G - A - B - C - D but to understand it, I can take E major as E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D# - E. The Aeolian (6) mode has a flattened 3, 6, 7 so I'm left with an E major scale with a flattened 3, 6, 7 which is the same as G major chord with the root shifted to the E.
Click to expand...

Well, first of all I'd just like to say that, from my perspective, you're on the right track :)

Just to clear up what you said there second, The Aeolian mode of G major is simply the same set of notes, only starting from C, so: C - D - E - F - G# - A - B - C. Try to think of modes in terms of moving the root and playing the same notes from that different starting point, rather than taking a mode, calling it "major" or "minor" rather than a mode, then reverse-engineering it back to the original scale using the differences between said original scale and the mode in question.

Get used to using the world "equivalent" more often too, because an E Aeolian mode is not the same thing as the G major scale; they have the same notes, but not in the same order. If you keep trying to convert from scales you modes you will get confused and forget where you started. You need to establish in your mind that modes are NOT scales, otherwise you'll find it harder to move between them if you chose to write a song in say, E Phrygian.
 
#40
The fact that the modes can be derived by starting on each degree of the major scale was (is) simply a convenient way to generate different scales.

They really are separate scales, each with its own sonic identity. It is sometimes better to think of them in terms of alterations to the major scale, while keeping the tonic (root) constant. Then after that you can think about which major scale shares those same pitches.

For instance, instead of thinking C major has the same notes as D dorian, etc., think of the dorian scale as a major scale with a flat 3 and 7. C dorian ALSO happens to have the same notes as Bb major.

The Aeolian has a flat 3, 6 and 7. And C aeolian also has the same notes as Eb major.

I believe this way is theoretically more useful.
 

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