Marshall Superbass / Chris Squire tone in a pedal?

[cavemanbass]

OK, I know I'll never be able to play like Squire or truly sound like him, but I love the really hard edged / slightly distorted / super articulate tone that he got from his Ric and two Superbass amps (one distorted, one clean). I've tried a few different pedals to get a sound in that ballpark: B3k, Jfet Marshall from JohnK, Verellen (with lead channel tuned especially for this kind of tone). They all sound great in their own way, but not quite giving me the clank and hard edge that I'm looking for. The obvious solution, schlepping two Marshall rigs, is not really an option - not least because I don't want that tone all the time; just for certain songs.

Would appreciate any pointers as to what might work for this. I have a Tech21 Oxford on order btw since there's been a few recent threads praising its clankyness. Have also eyed the EH English Muff'n, and the Wampler Plexi...

 

[MGR]

Mainly you would need his hands, pick attack and brain to really get close. Not trying to be glib here, but 99.999% of the time, the tone is in the hands of the player and not his equipment.

Having said that, I think you'd mainly need to replicate his bass/pickup/pick/amp/string setup exactly to get as close as you want to. He played with a few effects, but not to get his main tone.

 

[FaithNoMan]

I think 100% of the style is in the hands, but tone is subjective. Geddy certaibly has a different tone from say, Hemispheres than Permanent Waves.

One is bitey, metallic, a bit thinner. The other is lo-mid growly. His hands are doing none of that.

 

[bassbrad]

Dave Meros from Spock's Beard gets as close as I have ever heard to the CS tone.

 

[cavemanbass]

Dave Meros from Spock's Beard gets as close as I have ever heard to the CS tone.

thanks for the video link, I'll take a look later this evening.

One thing I've heard from several people is that Squire's distortion is probably coming from overdriven power tubes, which why it's so hard to re-create with a pedal. I've been contemplating a custom build along the lines of SWR Interstellar Overdrive, but in pedal form (i.e. small / low wattage tube amp built into the pedal, with a dummy speaker load and stepped-down output). Cost aside, would be a fun project...

 

[cavemanbass]

Mainly you would need his hands, pick attack and brain to really get close. Not trying to be glib here, but 99.999% of the time, the tone is in the hands of the player and not his equipment.

This is certainly great news for me, I can sell all of my gear and keep any random amp, since no matter what pedals or amps I use the sound will be 99.999% the sound of my hands. I suppose Squire could just as easily have used an SVT or Acoustic 360 to get his sound, just happens that the amp they had in his local shop was a Marshall so he bought that one.
Does make me wonder why we bother with any forums other then the one on Hands. Wait, do we even have a Hands forum?

 

[FilterFunk]

I think 100% of the style is in the hands, but tone is subjective.

Very well put!

 

[MGR]

I think 100% of the style is in the hands, but tone is subjective. Geddy certaibly has a different tone from say, Hemispheres than Permanent Waves.

One is bitey, metallic, a bit thinner. The other is lo-mid growly. His hands are doing none of that.

True, but at the same time, debate still rages to this day as to which bass he used on Sawyer/Barchetta/Limelight. Was it the Jazz or the Rick? Both different sounding basses, but all played by him on those tracks.

This is certainly great news for me, I can sell all of my gear and keep any random amp, since no matter what pedals or amps I use the sound will be 99.999% the sound of my hands. I suppose Squire could just as easily have used an SVT or Acoustic 360 to get his sound, just happens that the amp they had in his local shop was a Marshall so he bought that one.
Does make me wonder why we bother with any forums other then the one on Hands. Wait, do we even have a Hands forum?

Hey, sorry you're so sour on what is a fairly known fact. Of course you can get pedals to "replicate X amp," but you will never sound like Squire unless you're him. It's like the famous story of how John Bonham once got behind his son's set of junior Ludwigs, which were basically toys, and the guy relating the story said how even on those drums, Bonham had his signature trademark sound. I always think that trying to ape a sound is usually an exersize in futility, but I get your point that you can get sort of close. Anyhow, the sarcasm is not really necessary since I didn't come at you that way.

 

[cavemanbass]

True, but at the same time, debate still rages to this day as to which bass he used on Sawyer/Barchetta/Limelight. Was it the Jazz or the Rick? Both different sounding basses, but all played by him on those tracks.

Hey, sorry you're so sour on what is a fairly known fact. Of course you can get pedals to "replicate X amp," but you will never sound like Squire unless you're him. It's like the famous story of how John Bonham once got behind his son's set of junior Ludwigs, which were basically toys, and the guy relating the story said how even on those drums, Bonham had his signature trademark sound. I always think that trying to ape a sound is usually an exersize in futility, but I get your point that you can get sort of close. Anyhow, the sarcasm is not really necessary since I didn't come at you that way.

let's see... the very first line of my post was "OK, I know I'll never be able to play like Squire or truly sound like him" so how was your reply, which in different words repeated what I already had acknowledged, helpful? The second part of your post suggested that I need to get exactly the same rig as Squire used, which I had also addressed in my original post. Alright, apologies for the sarcasm but this is after all an fx forum and I'm interested in learning about other people's experience with gear not hearing stuff repeated that I've already pointed out myself.

 

[blindrabbit]

This is certainly great news for me, I can sell all of my gear and keep any random amp, since no matter what pedals or amps I use the sound will be 99.999% the sound of my hands. I suppose Squire could just as easily have used an SVT or Acoustic 360 to get his sound, just happens that the amp they had in his local shop was a Marshall so he bought that one.
Does make me wonder why we bother with any forums other then the one on Hands. Wait, do we even have a Hands forum?

The idea of a Hands forum just may be the most brilliant idea I've seen on TB in some time!

That aside, of course gear/effects/amps/etc has a critical effect on a person's tone, and Squire was a guy who used some very unique picking techniques as well as complex signal splitting. There is at least one YouTube video out there showing his signal chain. I'll try to find it later this evening if someone else doesn't post it here first. Anyway, it is completely reasonable to try and find ways to achieve an approximation of his tone through effects (and other means), so don't let naysayers throw you off.

 

[MGR]

let's see... the very first line of my post was "OK, I know I'll never be able to play like Squire or truly sound like him" so how was your reply, which in different words repeated what I already had acknowledged, helpful? The second part of your post suggested that I need to get exactly the same rig as Squire used, which I had also addressed in my original post. Alright, apologies for the sarcasm but this is after all an fx forum and I'm interested in learning about other people's experience with gear not hearing stuff repeated that I've already pointed out myself.

Fair enough man. Listen, FWIW, my first post was not meant in a negative way. You asked a question and I gave you what I thought was the best answer in my experience. Have fun in the tone quest, and may Squire's tone be upon you one day soon.

 

[Bob_Ross]

I suppose Squire could just as easily have used an SVT or Acoustic 360 to get his sound, just happens that the amp they had in his local shop was a Marshall so he bought that one.

Given that he was playing through Ampeg SVTs for the last ~20 years of his life I suspect he could have used anything.

 

[cavemanbass]

Given that he was playing through Ampeg SVTs for the last ~20 years of his life I suspect he could have used anything.

Using SVT for clean sounds doesn't mean he stopped using Marshalls, as per this quote from his tech: Chris's bass tech Richard points out two Marshall bass heads, that judging by the facing and controls, are early Super Bass's. The lower one is said to be from 1965 and the other is a back up that has apparently never needed to be used. After this it's said that he blends the Marshall with an Ampeg SVT 2, which Richard points out could be for clean tone and the Marshall for dirty tone.

 

[FaithNoMan]

True, but at the same time, debate still rages to this day as to which bass he used on Sawyer/Barchetta/Limelight. Was it the Jazz or the Rick? Both different sounding basses, but all played by him on those tracks.

Yes, but here's the thing about that. The Ric doesn't have the bite cranked if it's on those albums.

A thin resonant rock maple bass played through a bright distorted amp will have a brittle metallic grinding edge if you make it sound that way. Early Faith No More, Tool's "Undertow" era. Those sound that way because of the harsh resonant frequencies brought by thin rock maple (and hard ash body wings on the neck-through Aria SB1000 on Chuck-era FNM)

The reason Chris Squire's Ric sounded like a broken rusty plow blade hitting rock is those reasons.
On the flipside, the extreme backset of the bridge pup on a 70's fretless J bass has a nasal sound like no other, because of the type of pickup and location.

Not arguing here, just saying it can definitely help get those tone by having appropriate gear, especially if the bass has one of those tones that are on the edge of what that instrument and setup can achieve.

The 80's Geddy tones have a subdued top-end compared to A Farewell to Kings, or Hemispheres. I can make my Ric sound a bit like John Wetton's P bass if I subdue the treble with older rounds. If I try to crank high mids with new rounds, it sounds much more harsh and abrasive, ala the "angry piano tone"

 

[Trombassix]

Like Billy Sheehan said in one of his bass set-up videos on YouTube: part of Chris Squire's sound are the strings on the fretboard from a low action. The rest comes from the qualities of the amp and speakers Chris Squire used- think about how much headroom is in the amp, how much distortion and compression you are hearing, then replicate those qualities with the headroom of the amps you're using.

 

[Michael4bass]

For one thing, Squire only used one Super Bass head, the other one was a spare. Some time is the 80's he incorporated the SVT's with the Marshall. I'm sure that he eq'ed the SVTs to sound similar to his Marshall. According to Alan White (met him at a drum clinic) where he told me that Squire played very loud on stage because he refused to put his bass in the monitors because he felt that it interfered with his house sound). According to Chris, he only used the one Marshall in the studio. A lot of Squire's sound was, especially in the early years, was fret buzz combined with a hard right hand picking attack (he used the big side of a Herco heavy pick) along with the amp distortion.

Here's the link to the Premier Guitar gear rundown with CS and Steve Howe. http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Rig_Rundown_Yes_Steve_Howe_and_Chris_Squire
You'll notice that when the interviewer asked Richard about the clean/dirty amp ratio, Richard didn't know saying that he and Chris never talked about that. Being that Squire was so meticulous about his sound, I'm sure Richard would have known about the setup if Squire had indeed used a clean/dirty amp setup.

I have a friend in Nashville who has a old 70s 50 watt Super Bass head. Great sounding and loud amp, but unfortunately, he doesn't want to sell it. If you have a laptop, you might want to try out some amp sims, especially some of the Marshall ones, and send it into a amp for your stage sound. A lot easier and cheaper than trying to find some old 70s Marshall Super Bass heads.

Bassically, Michael

 

[Mr. voodoobass]

I remember playing a show where the opening act had a bassplayer playing a rick 4003 through a marshall rig during sound check. Sounded brutal, but then during the actual show, he played a jazzbass instead. Sounded exactly the same. So yes much of that clank is in the hands and technique.
Having searched that same tone myself, i've relied upon p-bass, jazzbass and rickenbacker with some boost of highs and mids on whatever amp i've used.
Then just add a little bit of overdrive to get the grind.
Good boxes to help me with it has been:
Rusty box
Mesa flux drive
Proco rat(with a eq after to boost some lows back)
Aguilar Tonehammer
And it does help if you use a good old tube amp as it compresses nicely and help even out some harshness.
Old peavey and acoustic amps also have that nice grind in them.
But really, with a good overdrive you can get pretty much any amp towards that grind and clank.

 

[FaithNoMan]

I remember playing a show where the opening act had a bassplayer playing a rick 4003 through a marshall rig during sound check. Sounded brutal, but then during the actual show, he played a jazzbass instead. Sounded exactly the same. So yes much of that clank is in the hands and technique.
Having searched that same tone myself, i've relied upon p-bass, jazzbass and rickenbacker with some boost of highs and mids on whatever amp i've used.
Then just add a little bit of overdrive to get the grind.
Good boxes to help me with it has been:
Rusty box
Mesa flux drive
Proco rat(with a eq after to boost some lows back)
Aguilar Tonehammer
And it does help if you use a good old tube amp as it compresses nicely and help even out some harshness.
Old peavey and acoustic amps also have that nice grind in them.
But really, with a good overdrive you can get pretty much any amp towards that grind and clank.

Depends on the type of clank. Maple basses that have thin bodies naturally sound more metallic. It's different than the "new strings" sound. There's a hardness in the mids that is difficult to explain, but easier to hear("Sober" by Tool is a classic example - it's not extremely trebly, but it has very metallic mids). Some 4003 basses have very dark pickups that mask some of those qualities.

But there is bright J basses as well, and bright P basses. Hard ash can sound similar to hard maple. I'm also talking about extreme examples of tones. All three types of basses(J, P, and Ric) can sound equally aggressive and somewhat alike. It's when they are pushed to extremes when you can hear some of these qualities. That being said, for 99% of the tones, you can get quite close with a variety of basses and overdrives.

One of my old favorites(besides the Oxford, and more expensive) was the Darkglass VMT fed into the B3K(my strings were well broken in here):
Playing: 12316b.mp3 - picosong

 

[StraffordMike]

The idea of a Hands forum just may be the most brilliant idea I've seen on TB in some time!

That aside, of course gear/effects/amps/etc has a critical effect on a person's tone, and Squire was a guy who used some very unique picking techniques as well as complex signal splitting. There is at least one YouTube video out there showing his signal chain. I'll try to find it later this evening if someone else doesn't post it here first. Anyway, it is completely reasonable to try and find ways to achieve an approximation of his tone through effects (and other means), so don't let naysayers throw you off.

What hands are best for metal?

 

[4001]

Mainly you would need his hands, pick attack and brain to really get close. Not trying to be glib here, but 99.999% of the time, the tone is in the hands of the player and not his equipment.

Having said that, I think you'd mainly need to replicate his bass/pickup/pick/amp/string setup exactly to get as close as you want to. He played with a few effects, but not to get his main tone.

All of the above.