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Double Bass Miles Davis: Over-rated?

Alexi David said:
I think that..........Miles was a great consolidator then innovator, many times over. And a fine (just not technically brilliant) trumpeter. I think many times we lose sight of past innovations because of the context of time that we are living in. For example, someone may listen to the Hawk doing "Body and Soul" from 1939, and say "So? what's the big deal anyway?". But if you were around in '39 and heard that......well, it's a different perspective. It might even have been shocking. A lot of what Miles did has become so mainstream, there are ENDLESS droves of Jazz groups that play in the Mid 60s Miles style, so one can simply say "he's no big deal." Like when something gets forgotten as an innovation and just becomes mainstream. But I think perspective in context is an important thing to think about.

hope that made some sense....

Makes perfect sense to me and thats definitely whats going on when people easily dismiss great innovators many decades after the fact. On the other hand there is also a tendency to oversimplify history and give perhaps too much credit to certain high profile individuals when talking about an evolving tradition that countless people had a hand in.
 
Confucius said:
there is also a tendency to oversimply history and give perhaps too much credit to certain high profile individuals when talking about an evolving tradition that countless people had a hand in.

Agreed, and Miles is in that bag too (stole composer credits, etc) BUT he is still a major innovator.

I was almost gonna turn this into a Wynton thread. But I won't. Enough of those.
 
Hmmm. Miles did so many things. He definitely influenced the genre a lot. He knew how to identify talent and put together a band. As he said to Ben Sidran: "It's about the groups of people you know. It's not all about me, it's about them." When Miles got Tony for the second quintet and Bill Evans for the sextet, etc. he did these things for specific reasons.

Yeah sure he didn't invent modal jazz - a lot of that came from George Russell. And yeah sure he probably got the idea from "So What" from Ahmad Jamal's take on Morton Gould's "Pavanne" but he was instrumental in popularising modal jazz and put it on the map with "Milestones" and then "Kind of Blue". And yeah sure he didn't do everything with the "Birth of the Cool" although Mulligan and Evans both admit that Miles was instrumental in making it all happen, getting the gigs, the recording contract with Capitol, bringing in guys like Max Roach.

It's not about whether he was a good technical player, etc. The important part to remember is that he a huge impact on jazz and especially over a long period.
 
About the 80's: listen to the great album Live Around the World, there's a track there -- Amandla, written by Marcus Miller, and tell me if you don't feel anything. The fact of the matter is, whether someone likes him or not -- he's there, and that's a fact that will exist without somebody's approval/dissaproval regarding his genius. Some people just can't get over things like "how is that possible?!" etc, to me he's a musician who bled his heart, and I spend little time thinking wether he was a genius or not or how and why. Just listen to the music and let it speak for itself. Change is inevitable, and that was his great motivation to change not so much the world but to grow into change as a man, a musician. Peace.
 
Karim Yengsep said:
About the 80's: listen to the great album Live Around the World, there's a track there -- Amandla, written by Marcus Miller, and tell me if you don't feel anything. The fact of the matter is, whether someone likes him or not -- he's there, and that's a fact that will exist without somebody's approval/dissaproval regarding his genius. Some people just can't get over things like "how is that possible?!" etc, to me he's a musician who bled his heart, and I spend little time thinking wether he was a genius or not or how and why. Just listen to the music and let it speak for itself. Change is inevitable, and that was his great motivation to change not so much the world but to grow into change as a man, a musician. Peace.

Miles, to my knowledge was the first one to try to get record companies NOT to put liner notes on records..I don't have a problem with that, but I gotta respect Miles for really believing that the music truly does speak for itself!
 
Another amazing point, is that Miles is still influencing people to this very day. I myself started to listen to his music in my teens, and of course I was listening to his 80's music, all that funky stuff. Well, over the years I kept going back to his earlier works, and I can say that the reason why I got into jazz was because of Miles. I went from listening to Darryl Jones and Marcus Miller to Ron Carter and PC, and that opened up a whole new door to be explored. As a musician I always thought that Miles with his electric music brought people to Jazz.
 
Miles was a major innovator in several different ways. To me, the most important will always be his actual solo voice style on the trumpet. It is on a level that few musicians ever reach, which reveals that he has a deep understanding of not only the structure of the composition he is playing, but also the artistic reason for the composition to exist in the first place, the feeling and the statement of the tune. However, he reveals this in a subtle, extremely well composed, and dramatic linear style, like a film maker or great storyteller. It is absolutely the antithesis of the verbose, scale based advanced bebop blowing that most people associate with modern jazz. I mean, I like Charlie Parker fine, but so many of his imitators (I don't call them his heirs unless they actually create something new, like he did, rather than doing the same thing he did, which is not the same as what he did !) really need to play about 1/10 as many notes as they do and focus instead on meaning, dynamics and tone as variables of expression that are each MORE important that note choices. This is a big part what the original period of free jazz was about, and it is interesting to note that you will find very few free players that don't love Miles, but you don't necessarily get that type of love for any other player from any older generation, at least not as universally as Miles.

I think Miles was a technical virtuoso, but his technique was geared toward his goals of an expressive voice, rather than trying to impress people with his chops. Lots of people can play their instruments "well", but who the hell cares, really ? Outside of other players of the same instrument, not too many people. And why should they ? It's one thing to blaze and have an endless supply of right or even "advanced" notes and riffs, but what does it all mean ?

His other major areas of innovation: rejection of older showbiz "values", and turning the resulting mystique to his advantage; freely mixing styles and backgrounds in the players he selected in his bands, and his related, general openness to all kinds of music and ideas, which has a lot to do with his lack of interest in repeating himself or sitting on his laurels; his willingness to enter a real collaboration with someone like Teo, who would in many cases radically edit and collage the recordings into the studio albums beginning with IASW; and his way of leading the band and spontaneously creating the set by playing riffs that indicate the next tune, which stems from the late 60s early 70s period.

I don't care to defend his 80s period much but I will say I saw him a couple of times then and he always played great himself, and taken to include the bands and tunes, that music still had its moments, though not like before.
 
Bijoux said:
Another amazing point, is that Miles is still influencing people to this very day. I myself started to listen to his music in my teens, and of course I was listening to his 80's music, all that funky stuff. Well, over the years I kept going back to his earlier works, and I can say that the reason why I got into jazz was because of Miles. I went from listening to Darryl Jones and Marcus Miller to Ron Carter and PC, and that opened up a whole new door to be explored. As a musician I always thought that Miles with his electric music brought people to Jazz.

I agree--Amandla was my first Miles cd, and shortly after I got into his straight ahead stuff. I still really love some of the 80's recordings like Tutu, Amandla, Man with the Horn, We Want Miles. You're Under Arrest is terrible. The album cover is hilarious though.
 
I think teleharmonium's comments are the most convincing on this topic. Miles was in his artistic heyday from 1958-1967. His particular take on the language and his sensitivity to what he was trying to say and the musicians who could best help him say it- was like a laser beam, artistically. Jazz needed him and he delivered and created records that are part of our consciousness. Obviously his influence his tremendous. Muted trumpet, electric piano-in it's on every elevator--good or bad. Even his contemporaries-who rightfully questioned his skills and his attitude(including my Dad) acknowledge his sound of his as being important-no small feat. His things in 1968 onward --with electronic piano and rock guitar. They are being hashed out right now and I think we are liking it. Maybe his more dissonant forays and Cindy Lauper covers were not delivered with the same amount of conviction.

So what it boils down to is--yes he was overrated on his bebop skills/chops and rightfully so. His contemporaries/disciples of Diz: Fats, Red, Kenny were more accomplished in the bebop idiom but more records of his were artistically important than practically any other artist. Plus every artist has his place in the continuum and he can either be right in his wheelhouse or completely miscast. Take for ex. Kenny Durham on Joe Henderson's In and Out. He couldn't play in the bag that he was good at. I'm sure Miles would've sounded better. And definitely Freddie Hubbard. Who also obviously owes a debt to Miles (on that side of his musical persona, Clifford Brown on the other) Sonny Rollins and Trane. Same thing. Sonny was amazing but Coltrane gave him fits at night. Coltrane was a new sound/force to be reckoned with and there was no getting around it. It's a question of where you develop the bulwark of your artistry and how you're hearing what your doing. If you have conviction about what you're doing--again that's no small feat. Many really good musicans--don't have an artistic vision. They are skilled in the language but not influential in the larger aspect of music.
Plus his solo on So What. Was there ever a more recognizable, hummable and stirring solo? Ok put Clifford Brown on that record. He might've played a blistering bebop solo on it--but it wouldn't have the same meaning. Plus he might say something on the date like. "Jeez it's 16 bars of D-. I'm not sure I have enough to say!" Ofcourse he would but you get my point. Clifford would make it his own--but the style was right in the heart of what Miles was perfect at artistically.
 
and when people talk about miles in the '80s,you have to remember that that music has also influenced a generation of musicians who merge jazz and funk and hip-hop ect naturaly.now in a critical sense this music is not as well reguarded as his early stuff but IMO it's what happens in the wake of what someone like miles does that count's.drummers and bassist are exspected to be able to swing AND funk or groove(i always thought that a musician in his teen's '20s or '30 who couldn't play contemporary styles was a little odd)this is something that mile had a large contribution to.
 
willgroove2 said:
and when people talk about miles in the '80s,you have to remember that that music has also influenced a generation of musicians who merge jazz and funk and hip-hop ect naturaly.now in a critical sense this music is not as well reguarded as his early stuff but IMO it's what happens in the wake of what someone like miles does that count's.drummers and bassist are exspected to be able to swing AND funk or groove(i always thought that a musician in his teen's '20s or '30 who couldn't play contemporary styles was a little odd)this is something that mile had a large contribution to.

That's a good point. Again it's the continuum. Guys in school now might more associate Miles with Marcus Miller than Paul Chambers. So a younger person can sometimes better judge later work. They hear the Acid Jazz thing as mainstream. Or hear the new work first and then go back and examine where it came from. But may not have known that Miles muted trumpet over funk is the model for the sound that spawned that. If you grew up with 50's & 60s miles you might've been part of the group pining for the Miles of old and maybe just tolerating the later work. But don't quote Bill Cosby giving Milt Jackson a perspective on these issues on Miles! "I just wished he would play Round Midnight...again" "And I said, Milton..He's just not set up to do that anymore" Uggh. And according to my Dad ANDThelonius Monk--he didn't quite get the hang of Round Midnite :hiding: Listen to the bridge melody and last A. A little nebulous there.

Oh and Miles' proteges: Wayne, Herbie, Zawinul . They were the most successful in bringing together the jazz fusion thing IMHO. Again it's a function of where you sit in the spectrum.
 
Miles deserves all the accolades that's been said by present and former top notch Jazz musicians of the 20th and new 21st century nothing short of an astonishing career, for god sakes I mean this guy always stayed ahead of the game IMO,hell I have an album by the group "Cameo with him on it. Now if you want to talk about tone then might I suggest a phenominal trumpet player by the name of Clifford Brown
 
It really comes down to what you consider to be good playing and/or writing. If your thing is FAST-FAST-FAST playing then Miles isn't going to impress you. But, you like the slower playing and have a appreciation for space between notes and runs, then Miles might appeal you. I've heard it said many times by Jazz enthusiasts that Miles is one of those musicians who is just as respected for what he doesn't play as for what he does play in a song.

With that said, I neither love or dislike Miles' music, I like it. However, I did see him in 1987 while on his Tutu tour. That show gave me a whole new respect for him and his style.

Paul Mac
 
teleharmonium said:
I think Miles was a technical virtuoso, but his technique was geared toward his goals of an expressive voice, rather than trying to impress people with his chops. Lots of people can play their instruments "well", but who the hell cares, really ? Outside of other players of the same instrument, not too many people. And why should they ? It's one thing to blaze and have an endless supply of right or even "advanced" notes and riffs, but what does it all mean ?

Amen