Modal theory query

[SpawnofHastur]

I love the whole tone scale. It's got a beautiful sound.

As to the history of modes- I do actually know rather a lot about the Greek modes and investigations into the physics of sound. Being a bored university student with access to lots of articles is helpful in life. Hell, I've got a lot of interested in quarter tonal music, too. I love music theory and ethno-musicology. It's all so interesting.

By and large, I learn my scales in terms of "Root, flat second, flat third..." and think about my riffs in more or less the same way. I was just asking about the 'modes' of the blues scale and pentatonic scales because I've never really seen anyone talking about them, and was wondering if there was a profitable means of exploration there.

I practice using Pacman's scale method, and practice my arpeggios in the same way. It's just that I have a tendency to overthink things and was wondering if I should divide the blues scale, pentatonic scales and so on into modes and practice them like that, too.

 

[Ten Four One]

This is how modes are used today - we take the basic diatonic scale as its defined by half steps and whole steps and start on different pitches. We don't build them necessarily from the tetrachords, although its a nice little trick.

Yeah, I remember tetrachord stuff because it's easier to remember than all those medieval church modes.

My main point is, though, that we take the 7 tone scale & the various modes built from it as canon, as if there's some music theory rulebook out there that says "this is right and this is wrong" and what we end up with are questions like those in the OP about "is this a real mode?" etc.

One day I keep telling myself I'll write a book that does theory from a more historical (and physics based) perspective, building each important revelation as it occurred in history so students would realize that what we call music came from somewhere & wasn't just handed down from Mel Bay.

 

[mambo4]

I was just asking about the 'modes' of the blues scale and pentatonic scales because I've never really seen anyone talking about them, and was wondering if there was a profitable means of exploration there.

Not terribly profitable IMHO, if you want to be "practical"...meaning it will shed little light on the usual bass role of supporting the harmony. Not that that has to be your role...but in that context, Maybe a fun brain exercise or experimental source of ideas at best.

 

[HaVIC5]

Not terribly profitable IMHO. Maybe a fun brain exercise or experimental source of ideas at best.

True, although its still a nice concept to work with. Remember, the minor pentatonic is a "mode" of the major pentatonic, the fourth mode to be exact. The other modes aren't commonly used, and my thinking as to why that's the case lies in the fact that if you analyze the 5 modes of the anhemitonic pentatonic scale (anhemitonic means no half-steps; this is the music theorist's term for the pentatonic scale), only the major pentatonic and the minor pentatonic have both a third and a perfect fifth. This lets the ear hear the root more strongly, since they all combine to create a very strong tonic triad sound. The other modes either have just the 5th (mode 2, mode 4) or just the 3rd (mode 3).

Coming up with modes for the "blues scale" would be rather pointless. I dislike thinking of the blues scale as a scale unto itself, actually. All it is, is the minor pentatonic with the b5/#4 passing tone. That note, the b5, is rarely ever used in a way that doesn't have a passing function to either the 5 or the 4 in the scale. For example, in a blues context, you'd never hear this kind of lick:

C Eb Gb Bb G F F# Eb F#

That doesn't sound bluesy at all. It therefore shouldn't be looked at as a scale that you can derive modes from, rather, you should look at it as a way of describing the chromaticism of the style. If you've ever heard of the "bebop scale", or "bebop mixolydian" or anything like that, you should think of them the same ways. They're just convenient ways or organizing the chromaticism of a particular style.

 

[Tehrin Cole]

You hear much of this stuff in jazz,classical,fusion!Have you gone to your instrument and tried any of this? Before you dismiss it,try it!
This isn't "armchair science",these are solid facts and you can hear them anywhere!
Don't get so hung up in terminology that you miss the point!The question should be:"Does it sound good when you play it"?Theory is simply,musical information,...ideas,if you will,and it's up to the musician to apply it,wherever it's applicable!

The problem is,many people get so hung up in "names and terminology" that they don't stop long enough to listen to it,and challenge their own creativity,or even to expand their own musicial scope!

Does it really matter who came up with the terminology?Have you sat down with your instrument tried any of this stuff? These are the real questions!

It doesn't matter what kind of music you play. All of this stuff applicable,if you know how,and more importantly,WHERE to apply it! All I'm saying is,be open!
It also comes down to how much music you listen to,and how far you want to take your craft! I've been in this business for many,many years,and I've traveled to many,many lands,and have studied and played music of so many diverse cultures! What I've learned is that there is so much music,out there,...SO MUCH!

Expand your scope! Challenge yourself,as an artist! Be open! Don't dismiss this stuff,until you've tried it!

Peace.

 

[HaVIC5]

You hear much of this stuff in jazz,classical,fusion!

Oh, of course, a huge influence of mine is Chick Corea, and he is ever quite the pentatonicist. Gary Willis is another one. There's a lot to be said about the more exotic scales and their application through the chromatic universe of contemporary jazz improvisation. Trust me when I say I know the sound of these pentatonics intimately.

But that's not what I meant at all. My main issue with your post was the fact that you simply said "these are common scales" and then listed a few. Too often beginning students of music theory think that if they learn the fingerings for enough scales, they've learned theory. Books like the Bass Grimoire perpetuate the myth that there are a bunch of scales that you MUST learn before you've learned "theory". You, being an educator like you say in your profile, no doubt have experienced this. The problem is, of course, that once they've learned the fingerings for the scales, they either 1) get frustrated because they realize they haven't really learned anything about it or 2) think they've "learned theory" and proceed to blanket everything they play with scales upon scales upon scales with no thought to what notes they're playing. Both aren't desirable. Learning a scale isn't simply learning the fingerings and the exotic name of the scale. You're not going to sound like Michael Brecker any more than Stevie Ray Vaughn by learning the fingerings for the minor pentatonic scale.

This isn't "armchair science",these are solid facts and you can hear them anywhere!

What are solid facts?

It doesn't matter what kind of music you play. All of this stuff applicable,if you know how,and more importantly,WHERE to apply it! All I'm saying is,be open!

Right, I agree, but simply saying "this is the Pelog scale" doesn't do anything in terms of explaining how to apply it, and as a pedagogical tool, it impedes beginner's learning. Thinking that its vitally important to learn contemporary application for the pelog scale in order to learn about the mechanics of music is counterproductive.

 

[Tehrin Cole]

Don't misunderstand me! As an educator,I would never start a beginning student on such a high level,...I always come with the basics!

However,in this posting I gave the basic pentatonic,plus a few other examples that maybe the OP can sit down and experiment with,just to open his head to some new sounds,...just some things to think about!

As far as application goes? You'd be surprised by where you could play a pelog pentatonic scale,....it comes down to HOW you practice,as well as what. Believe me,this scale is more common than you think!

What are solid facts? MUSIC! Ideas that can be applied,if you work them.
What I encourage my students to do is to make their practice sessions "musical"!

In other words,if we were working on the pentatonic scale in the classroom,I would encourage them to go home,and make this exercise into a musical concept,using whatever parameters they desire.The goal being,to stir up their own creativity!
Is this not what we do,as musicians?

What I should've asked the OP is:"How do you practice?" HOW you practice,is just as important as WHAT you practice,...maybe even more!

Musicians create! This is what we do.You can never have"enough information"from which to achieve this!

Peace.

 

[EADG mx]

The other modes aren't commonly used, and my thinking as to why that's the case lies in the fact that if you analyze the 5 modes of the anhemitonic pentatonic scale (anhemitonic means no half-steps; this is the music theorist's term for the pentatonic scale), only the major pentatonic and the minor pentatonic have both a third and a perfect fifth. This lets the ear hear the root more strongly, since they all combine to create a very strong tonic triad sound. The other modes either have just the 5th (mode 2, mode 4) or just the 3rd (mode 3).

I would argue that Modes 1 and 5 are the only modes that sound as a standalone scale. I'm assuming this is, as you said, because they outline a chord. Mode's 2, 3, 4 as standalone pitch sets don't really sound like much of anything (to me, anyway).

Coming up with modes for the "blues scale" would be rather pointless. I dislike thinking of the blues scale as a scale unto itself, actually. All it is, is the minor pentatonic with the b5/#4 passing tone. That note, the b5, is rarely ever used in a way that doesn't have a passing function to either the 5 or the 4 in the scale.

It therefore shouldn't be looked at as a scale that you can derive modes from, rather, you should look at it as a way of describing the chromaticism of the style.

+1