Double Bass Monitor Speakers & Mic/Pickup

[Gregmak]

Dear fellow bass players!

I made a similar post a couple of months ago regarding buying a new amp (I use a AI Coda S4+) and also on pickups/mic combo's.

Many of you recommended me the MAS speakers and as lovely as they look, it's too expensive to import them to Europe (Cyprus) with shipping and taxes. So I am looking to buy something that's made or at least sold in Europe. I read many pages of people on here using monitor speakers like the QSC series for double bass and I am thinking if I should give them a go.

I am looking at the Yamaha DXR 12 or 10 (not sure which woofer size would be better for bass). Anyone has experience with these?

The issue is always to be able hear myself in noisy bars/clubs and at least have a decent sound. The coda just gets too muddy with it's design in these terrible acoustic rooms that I play in. Also, lately noticing a strange midrange quack coming out of the coda which is driving me insane. I use the Troll mic and sometimes blend in a realist. To be completely honest, both sound like crap on my plywood bass. It sounds midrangey and the low frequencies sound very muddy. I play spiros on E & A and plain guts on D & G. The pickup/mic combo also seems to not be able to give me enough volume on the G string after the note D. But the lower notes on E & A strings can fill the room with boominess. Trying out a Shure SM58 beta under the bridge can sound pretty good but it really seems to depend on the room. In very noisy boxy bars with hard floors and walls it can be a nightmare and the fact that the amp is pointing towards the floor makes it even worse.

Acoustically, the bass sounds great. It is a bit of a boomy bass but sounds really good. I just can't seem to be able to amplify this bass.

I can't change the rooms that I play in (that's all we got here) so something else needs to change. Any advice and love you can give to a fellow bass player would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise I might switch to learning the trumpet

 

[Wasnex]

I have never had luck with a mic on an amplified bass. IF you are running through the PA it might be nice to send the mic to the mixer but use a contact mic for your amp. However, if your bass is boxey or wooly sounding down low already, the Realist is probably not an ideal choice.

As far as the quack. I usually tune that out with EQ. I have never had to do much for quack with a Realist though. Perhaps you might like the Empress ParaEQ.

Also, if the room you play in is very reverberant, I think you might be better off with a speaker that is more directional than the Coda. The Coda sounds fabulous in drier rooms, but I would expect it to get lost in a boomy room.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Also, lately noticing a strange midrange quack... which is driving me insane. I use the Troll mic and sometimes blend in a realist. To be completely honest, both sound like crap on my plywood bass. It sounds midrangey and the low frequencies sound very muddy.

The realist is a very polarizing pickup. Some love it, and some hate it. I'm in the latter camp because It always sounds muddy to me and has a midrange quack that, to my ears, represents everything I hate about the sound of bass pickups in general.

In any case, using a mic and pickup through a bass amp is a game I gave up on many years ago (I wrote three articles about it many years ago that can be found on the bottom half of [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] page ). But if I were hoping to blend these days, I'd go the Larry Grenadier route (pictured below) and mount a powered speaker on a pole mount to get the amplified sound up and over the body of the bass; this helps avoid feedback, and in my opinion is the best way to use a mic live on stage for live sound that doesn't involve FOH support (Larry's gig in the pic also obviously has FOH, but he uses this setup or some variant of it as his onstage monitor). Also, if you have the chance, try out different pickups to see if that part of the chain might help you get some clarity. Good luck!

 

[Ric Vice]

Good suggestions! Since Larry uses the Schoeps CMC6/MK41, one of the finest microphones out there for live recordings. LA Studio sound crews often use them for live recording on film sets. He has a particular setup that you cannot hope to duplicate, with a Shure SM 58. However, I have seen Drew Gress use the Shure directly into a Walter Woods amp to great results. Chris is right, what lies at the heart of your problem is the Realist. I’d recommend switching to the KNB-1 Cremona Pickup. It’s readily available, easy to install, inexpensive, and sounds remarkably good. As far as powered speakers go you cannot go wrong with QSC K8 or K10.

 

[AGCurry]

Good suggestions. I'll only add that I owned the Troll mic for about two weeks and found it very wanting.

 

[Ric Vice]

Good suggestions. I'll only add that I owned the Troll mic for about two weeks and found it very wanting.

Andy,
Since I know you have owned many condenser and ribbon microphones, what specific things sonically, didn't you like about the Troll, perhaps a bit to dark. Since initially folks like Ed Freidland and otherer's initially loved it I'm just curious?I ruled it out on my particular bass because I do not like something hanging off the bridge with rubber bands.

 

[Gregmak]

Guys thanks so much for your suggestions. For sure I need a new pickup so I'll check out the cremona. I'm also curious to see what setup Christian Mcbride uses lately. I really like his sound too even though it's different that Grenadier.

The Troll actually sounded really good on my old flatback carved bass. But doesn't sound good at all on the plywood. It's too muddy with hardly any definition. I'm thinking that this bass needs a pickup that sounds very tight but also a little bright. Is there such a pickup?

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Guys thanks so much for your suggestions. For sure I need a new pickup so I'll check out the cremona. I'm also curious to see what setup Christian Mcbride uses lately. I really like his sound too even though it's different that Grenadier.

The Troll actually sounded really good on my old flatback carved bass. But doesn't sound good at all on the plywood. It's too muddy with hardly any definition. I'm thinking that this bass needs a pickup that sounds very tight but also a little bright. Is there such a pickup?

I'm happy with the Fishman Full Circle on my ply. Punchy, direct, clear sound IMO.

 

[AGCurry]

Andy,
Since I know you have owned many condenser and ribbon microphones, what specific things sonically, didn't you like about the Troll, perhaps a bit to dark. Since initially folks like Ed Freidland and otherer's initially loved it I'm just curious?I ruled it out on my particular bass because I do not like something hanging off the bridge with rubber bands.

Ric, my observation was the same as Gregmak's: "It's too muddy with hardly any definition." I found it also too prone to feedback. I had it on my KC Strings carved bass.

The "natural" configuration of a ribbon mic's pickup pattern is bidirectional/figure-of-eight, which is the pattern that exhibits more proximity effect than any other. Long ago, RCA and others figured out how to modify that pickup pattern with labyrinths and shutters, but the ribbon goodness suffered with those techniques.

As you say, I'm a ribbon aficionado, and I believe that really good ribbon mics are pretty expensive; my AEA R44CNE is a GREAT mic ... but if I want to record my bass with it, it would need to be at least 3 feet off the instrument. My experiment with the Troll was, I guess, just to see how well it worked. For me, it didn't.

As I've stated ad nauseum, my go-to solution for not-too-loud situations is a close omni.

 

[Ric Vice]

Guys thanks so much for your suggestions. For sure I need a new pickup so I'll check out the cremona. I'm also curious to see what setup Christian Mcbride uses lately. I really like his sound too even though it's different that Grenadier.

The Troll actually sounded really good on my old flatback carved bass. But doesn't sound good at all on the plywood. It's too muddy with hardly any definition. I'm thinking that this bass needs a pickup that sounds very tight but also a little bright. Is there such a pickup?

I’m not sure I’d chase the Christian McBride setup. Unlike Larry Grenadier who has a setup specific for him. On the road, Christian’s a bass dejour player and often when not, he’s using a Realist on his Christopher travel bass. The KNB-1 Cremona is what
you’re looking for IME.

 

[Gregmak]

I’m not sure I’d chase the Christian McBride setup. Unlike Larry Grenadier who has a setup specific for him. On the road, Christian’s a bass dejour player and often when not, he’s using a Realist on his Christopher travel bass. The KNB-1 Cremona is what
you’re looking for IME.

Thanks Ric. I'll order the Cremona since it's cheap and let you guys know how it works out.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Thanks Ric. I'll order the Cremona since it's cheap and let you guys know how it works out.

If I'm not mistaken, Thoman has rebranded the same pickup as "Fire & Stone DB-1", at an even lower price. Convenient, since you live in Europe.

 

[Gregmak]

If I'm not mistaken, Thoman has rebranded the same pickup as "Fire & Stone DB-1", at an even lower price. Convenient, since you live in Europe.

Thanks Fredrik! Found it now on thomann.de for 66 euro, perfect

 

[Wasnex]

The realist is a very polarizing pickup. Some love it, and some hate it. I'm in the latter camp because It always sounds muddy to me and has a midrange quack that, to my ears, represents everything I hate about the sound of bass pickups in general.

In any case, using a mic and pickup through a bass amp is a game I gave up on many years ago (I wrote three articles about it many years ago that can be found on the bottom half of [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] page ). But if I were hoping to blend these days, I'd go the Larry Grenadier route (pictured below) and mount a powered speaker on a pole mount to get the amplified sound up and over the body of the bass; this helps avoid feedback, and in my opinion is the best way to use a mic live on stage for live sound that doesn't involve FOH support (Larry's gig in the pic also obviously has FOH, but he uses this setup or some variant of it as his onstage monitor). Also, if you have the chance, try out different pickups to see if that part of the chain might help you get some clarity. Good luck!

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I used the Realist quite a bit because about 50% of my work was bowing, and it was a good crossover pickup. I had it on 3 or 4 different basses and I always thought it was lower on the quack factor than some of the other piezos I have used. IMHO every pickup I have ever used require a bit of corrective EQ.

The Realist can be a bit woolly sounding on some basses due to sitting right on the body of the instrument. The wooliness can really degrade the pizz sound but may make the arco sound nice and warm, depending upon the instrument. The last bass I had the Realist on was a 7/8 Lakeburg Baer that was really resonant, so it was not a great pairing.

Bridge mounted piezos tend to be a bit more direct/dry sounding with less of the bass's body in the tone. Given the OPs performing environment I do think a different pickup would be a good idea, but EQ'ing the quack will probably still be necessary.

I usually elevate my amp as well to minimize interaction between the bass and amp. Since I use a contact pickup, waist level is usually good for me, but even 18" on a tilt back stand seems to help a lot. Going head level would be the best chance with a mic. I still think volume would be quite limited. Of course the AI is designed to sit on the floor and you probably lose the speaker's unique charms if you elevate it.

I really like the way the Acoustic Image speakers sound, but I used the one I had access to primarily for low volume bass guitar gigs. It didn't work well for me with string bass, in full big band. As a matter of practicality I rarely used string bass for jazz trio, but I am sure the AI would have been fine for that type of work. I never put it too the test.

 

[Ric Vice]

Here’s my take on the Realist. Good for Arco, but the louder you have be the worse it sounds. There’s a break over point beyond which it just sounds terrible. At moderate volumes with an HPF in tow it’s passible.

 

[Wasnex]

Here’s my take on the Realist. Good for Arco, but the louder you have be the worse it sounds. There’s a break over point beyond which it just sounds terrible. At moderate volumes with an HPF in tow it’s passible.

IMHO the Realist should probably only be considered if you need to play a lot of arco. I believe it typically excels more as a crossover or arco pickup than a pizz pickup.

I used a Fishman BP100 on several basses before the Realist came out. The BP100 had a lot more quack in the upper mids, but with EQ I could make it sound decent. I thought the BP100 was slightly better for pizz. The Realist was more neutral without EQ and was significantly better for arco.

I never had a problem getting loud or needed an HPF with any contact pickup. But I almost always elevate my amp to waist level to minimize interaction with the bass's body, and every pickup I have ever used required the application of progressive EQ as the amp was turned up.

 

[Ric Vice]

Different experience here, on my 5/8 Mirecourt Bass the Fishman BP-100 was the worst sounding pickup I ever owned. Even with the exemplary EQ section of the Walter Woods MI-400-8 it was nasty. By contrast the Realist sounded decent at moderate volumes, terrible at higher volumes. The MI-400-8 had a 3 way EQ cut/flat/boost switches assigned to the bass and treble controls effectively giving the amp a low cut filter in the bass frequency range.
Elevating the amp didn’t do anything, but thin out an already thin sound making it worse. The Underwood worked great for jazz pizzicato but, blew for arco.

 

[Wasnex]

Different experience here, on my 5/8 Mirecourt Bass the Fishman BP-100 was the worst sounding pickup I ever owned. Even with the exemplary EQ section of the Walter Woods MI-400-8 it was nasty. By contrast the Realist sounded decent at moderate volumes, terrible at higher volumes. Elevating the amp didn’t do anything but thin out an already thin sound worse. The Underwood worked great for jazz pizzicato but, blew for arco.

I typically had to use a LOT of EQ to get passable results with the BP100. I have to agree it sounded pretty horrid flat, but people used to speak highly of this model .

I thought the Underwood was a bit better than the BP100, but also required quite a bit of EQ. I still have my old Underwood stashed in a box with some files, just in case of an emergency.

Not everyone likes the sound with the cab is elevated. I works really well for me, and I understand & accept if you think it sucks .

 

[Ric Vice]

At the time a pair of Flite Sound 2x8 cabinets with magnetic liquid suspension, black aluminum drivers. which had decent low end and better midrange layer on, a pair of Euphonic Audio VL 108’s. The switch from the BP-100 to the Realist was night and day with the bow, only passably decent with pizzicato. VL 108’s sound better on the floor. Now back to OP’s message.

 

[mittenwald]

I also found the Realist too muddy. The best sound I can get live is using a single Stat B on the E side...best sounding pickup i’ve tried.

I also use a cheap omni tie clip mic, Audio Technica ATR3350, right inside the top treble F hole, to add some air for arco playing. It gets surprisingly loud.