That's the sort of talk makes me wonder why there's no VST pedals yet. Be so much better than Toneprint.
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Multi-band compression - is it really better?
- Thread starter Al Krow
- Start date
edwinhurwitz
Supporting Member
There was a rack mount unit that used VST plugins that looked interesting, but I guess it was mostly used for running virtual keyboard sounds and the like.
Our church stage produces some weird boominess around 50hz.
It has been annoying and hard to carve out until literally just this morning when we added one thing to the bass channel…
Multiband compression.
We dialed it in to cover only the problems frequencies. Worked like a charm. Felt dumb for never trying it until this moment.
It has been annoying and hard to carve out until literally just this morning when we added one thing to the bass channel…
Multiband compression.
We dialed it in to cover only the problems frequencies. Worked like a charm. Felt dumb for never trying it until this moment.
I love multi band compression. Is it better? Not necessarily, it’s just a different tool. I had a TC RH750 for years and eventually grew to dislike the prebaked settings in the onboard multiband compressor. I used to have a FEA dual band compressor pedal, which was beautiful, and now I use an HX Stomp and I can tweak to my hearts desire.
I'm just trying to keep my volume from getting out of control live, and a single band works just great as a limiter. Trying to slot into a recording, sidechain is the king. Multiband is great for specific middle ground situations, specifically getting compression while keeping a deep low end with more controlled playing. I just get too over the top live, so single is my go to solution.
I use multi-band compression all the time in mastering mixes, but I could not get any useful effects out of the Trace TRAINSIT B's dual-band compressor. I have to say I really liked their baked-in EQ 'pre-shape' preset though!
I was just thinking about what it would take to use a computer as a multi fx. Every fx you could dream of. Unlimited routing options. Almost unlimited amp/cab sims, irs etc. Truly sonic freedom. All you'd really need is a half decent interface and a midi pedal controller. Then I started thinking about latency and it crushed my dream.
edwinhurwitz
Supporting Member
Latency with a good interface and a high sample rate would be negligible. No more than what you would hear standing 3-8 feet from your rig. I've thought about doing this a bunch and even experimented with using MainStage for a bit. I also have Gig Performer (Gig Performer - live audio plugin host, AU, VST3 and VST host) but I haven't put the time into setting it up yet. I have lots of plugins from mixing setups. Since I use a computer already with a Metric Halo ULN-8 based IEM rig, it would be pretty trivial to get it all going. But, I'm liking pedals these days for ease of improvisation with sounds and would prefer to spend my time practicing.
Agreed, which is essential for me too. Of my 3 comps, two (Empress and Apex) have effective HPF reducing compression below a variable freq to avoid B-string squash. The Origin CB also famously has this. The third (Niche Humboldt DE) thankfully leaves the B intact. It's awesome all-around.
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The only reason I would personally use a multi band compressor on bass would be to avoid "overshooting" and over-compressing the entire signal on lower notes. But there are much easier ways to avoid this, like a HPF in the side-chain (which many bass-specific comps have, whether you know it or not) or even a HPF in the audio path.
Multi band compressors are far too much hassle, without much benefit on bass guitar IMO.
In my experience most bass players don't even know how to set up a single band compressor properly (sorry, but I see LOTS of bass players ruining their tone with poor compression). With multi band compressors you really need to know what you're doing. If you're an experienced audio engineer, great! But if you're a typical bass player, with little or no engineering experience beyond "bedroom studio" level you shouldn't get a multi band comp. In fact, you probably shouldn't even get a single band comp with more than two knobs: "Compression" and "Output". I know this may sound a bit arrogant but compression is an effect that lots of people THINK they understand, while in fact they don't, and end up ruining their tone. And please, for your own good, don't use presets!
No compression is better than poor compression.
Multi band compressors are far too much hassle, without much benefit on bass guitar IMO.
In my experience most bass players don't even know how to set up a single band compressor properly (sorry, but I see LOTS of bass players ruining their tone with poor compression). With multi band compressors you really need to know what you're doing. If you're an experienced audio engineer, great! But if you're a typical bass player, with little or no engineering experience beyond "bedroom studio" level you shouldn't get a multi band comp. In fact, you probably shouldn't even get a single band comp with more than two knobs: "Compression" and "Output". I know this may sound a bit arrogant but compression is an effect that lots of people THINK they understand, while in fact they don't, and end up ruining their tone. And please, for your own good, don't use presets!
No compression is better than poor compression.
When mixing individual tracks in a studio setting, I find multiband compression to be absolutely indispensable.
In a live setting, I almost never use it.
In a live setting, I almost never use it.
Multi band compression certainly has an advantage when it comes to reducing type audibility of the noise floor pumping - with a single band compressor and a low frequency signal, there is nothing in the signal to mask what’s happening at high frequencies. With a mutiband compressor, the hiss only moves when there is signal up there to mask what’s going on. Other aspects you may or may not like, but that aspect is an advantage to multi band compression.
I got to mix openers for a stadium tour. I befriend the headliner's engineer, and had a great education from them on a number of techniques with multi band use. The bass player for their band was present, up front in the mix, and for the aggressive nature of the tone choices quite clear on most nights- no mean feat. The key was multi band compression. It allowed quite precise control of the frequency ranges that normally wreak havoc in that type (or any type of bad) acoustical environment. I have since applied it as necessary, in varying amounts, to not only bass guitar but synths also, and anything that operates in those ranges. I approach each frequency band as a control for the most common frequency ranges in a PA, up to 4 bands. It works even better when tuning the frequency bands to the same frequencies as the crossover points in the PA. General ranges are: Sub (30 hz- 100hz) Low Mid (100 hz-300hz) High Mid (300hz-1.6k) and Highs (1.6k and above). Using a multi band at the end of the signal chain, you can then control the amount of power going to these ranges, thus balancing the spectrum for the environment, signal chain, or to maximize a stage amps efficiency. using reasonable ratios (a bit more on the lower, more energy hungry ranges) with musical attack and release times, you just dial back the threshold on the appropriate bands that are causing issues (boom or bloom, for example) until things are under control. If major reduction is needed in any specific range, like 6 db or more, reduce the output level for that band (if an option with your particular unit) instead of over- compressing. the unit that was being used that I learned about this approach with, was a BSS DPR 901mk 2. While this unit is described as a dynamic equalizer with compressor, it works off the same process of using a chosen frequency band to trigger dynamic control. I developed my own approach to mimicking the pa tuning, more out necessity of fast results than anything else.
If you can wrap your head around all that, using even a simple 2 band pedal can have some huge benefits in controlling your amp sound, or solving environment issues By placing it at the end of a signal chain.
Apply the same principals, but tuned to an instruments natural response with a multi band first in the chain, and it allows you to shape the tonal/ energy balance of the instrument output.
Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
If you can wrap your head around all that, using even a simple 2 band pedal can have some huge benefits in controlling your amp sound, or solving environment issues By placing it at the end of a signal chain.
Apply the same principals, but tuned to an instruments natural response with a multi band first in the chain, and it allows you to shape the tonal/ energy balance of the instrument output.
Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
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Agreed! Multi band compression can be a great tool during the mixing stage, especially if you want transparent compression. But I rarely use multi band compression for bass guitar. With bass I often use compression to shape the envelope, rather than transparent dynamics control. For this I usually get better/faster results with a single band compressor and a multi band eq in the side chain. Maybe it's just a work flow thing. Old habits I guess.
In a live setting I would never use multi band compression. It's far too much hassle IMO. At least if we're talking about something with the flexibility of a proper, studio grade multi band compressor. The compressor the OP is referring to does not have this flexibility. As far as I can tell it doesn't allow you to set the frequency range of each band or tweak the compression of each band. In fact, it doesn't even have controls for attack/release/ratio. Even though it's multi band it's also a very rudimentary compressor. It may work great for SOME playing styles/tones but probably not ideal for all. At least not if you want to be able to shape the dynamics rather than just use it for VERY basic level control.
On the positive side, this means it's easy to dial in. But you'll have to trust whatever settings the designers decided on. Maybe you'll love it, maybe not. But even a simple compressor pedal like the EBS Multicomp has a more flexible multi band mode than this. With the Multicomp you can at least dial in the amount of compression of the high/low bands with internal trim pots.
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Very good point, but perhaps more relevant to other uses than bass guitar? A good quality digital recording of a bass guitar shouldn't have much hiss, and most of it can be filtered out without noticeably affecting the tone of the bass. And in a live setting... too much hassle IMO.
But on a mix, on a bus or with other instruments, definitely!
Picking up on this and I appreciate this will be a general guide rather than a hard and fast rule, with a dual band would you look to have more compression on the higher energy low strings and less on the top strings? And how would you combine that with attack / release settings - again as a gen approach?
The flip side, I guess, is what our hearing is tuned to i.e. we're usually much more sensitive to mids and highs than lows.
Loved my old Eden amps and the compression built in. Eventually switched to Mesa and love my sound.
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I would twist the knobs until it sounds good.
But seriously, I would twist the knobs until it sounds good.
There really is no other answer as the right compressor settings depends on the tone of your bass, your playing style and what you're trying to achieve. If you're mic'ing an amp the tone of the amp and the amp settings will also matter (although if it's a tube amp I often find I get all the "compression" I need by pushing the amp close to, or slightly past, the edge of breakup). What you are asking for is basically a "preset", which is usually a recipe for poor tone.
But like I said, I generally don't use multi band compressors for bass. But I do tweak the compressor settings. In the studio I usually use a HPF in the side chain to avoid overshooting on low notes. In fact, in the studio I often use a multi band EQ in the side chain to get the compressor "moving" the way I want it to (combined with attack/release settings to shape the envelope of course).
In live settings I use relatively simple bass specific compressor pedals that are able to handle bass without too much hassle. Simplicity is important in a live setting IMO. It's just a matter of finding a pedal compressor that sounds and "feels" right for your playing style (which can be a challenge in itself...).
I will gladly admit that it took me YEARS to understand compression, and I still don't consider myself anywhere near an expert. I never really got the hang of it until I got into mixing/engineering. Compression is BY FAR the most difficult effect to get right. I honestly don't understand how anyone can "learn" compression by twisting knobs on a stomp box while simultaneously trying to play their bass in a room that probably doesn't sound great. In my opinions the best (probably only) way to really understand compression is by using a good plugin (like the FabFilter comp) on pre-recorded material, in a good listening environment.
Most bass specific compressor pedals are tweaked to sound great with bass of course, but the more knobs, the more potential to dial in a poor tone. And all compressors sound/feel different, even when they're designed specifically for bass. It's still a matter of finding a compressor that that works for your playing style and provides you with a tone/feel that you like. And if you're relatively new to compression: The less knobs the better.
You can find some tips and recommended settings on Becos web pages...
https://becosfx.com/compiq-twain-compresor-settings-examples/#example_01
This
.....is the reason I am using relatively simple compressor in a live setting (Keeley Bassist)
I agree. The one knob which I find important and is (relatively) easy to set (right) is threshold/sensitivity...
