Music theory/modal arpeggios question

[JKessell]

I'm a bit new to modes and have not really looked at modal arpeggios yet.

If I'm playing a Cmaj7 arpeggio starting from the low E instead of the C (E G B C E G B C), would that still be called a Cmaj7 arpeggio or could it be called a two octave E phrygian minor 6 arpeggio?

I'm a bit confused as by that logic a normal E phrygian arpeggio would be E G B D E but that's the same notes as E aeolian. Are they just they same or is there a common way that each mode is arpeggiated to outline its differences?

Hopefully this makes sense.

 

[Mushroo]

You could call it a C Major 7th first inversion chord, notated CMaj7/E.

I think you are confusing "apreggios" and "modes." An arpeggio is a chord played one note as a time. I've never heard of a "Phrygian chord" or "Phrygian arpeggio." In any case, the difference between E Aeolian and E Phrygian is F natural vs. F sharp. Since there is no F in your example, we'd need to look at the context of the chord progression and melody, to answer that question.

Another approach would be to simply not play F or F# over the CMaj7/E chord. Then you do not need to answer the question or think in terms of "modes" to understand this example.

 

[IJBurns]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. If I'm thinking modes then I'll make sure and add whatever "color" notes make a specific sound for the given mode but then that gets me away from the idea of triads, 7 chord arpeggios, etc.
What you can do is extend the arpeggios into the upper structures to highlight the color tones so say for C Lydian you'd play C E G B D F# A C. That'll cover two octaves.
That's the method I use if I want to continue in the arpeggio mind set instead of going scalar and still highlight the sound of the "mode" if you will.
If I just gave terrible advise someone please correct me because I'm generally always just pulling it all out of my a** anyway.

 

[IJBurns]

Also, a great resource to really engrain the sounds of each mode, in all keys, into your ear is John Patitucci's book 60 Melodic Etudes (I think that's the title?) Put on a drone of the root of the given mode/scale, play the scale, which he takes them all into the upper structures and provides fingerings, then play the corresponding etude and listen how each mode really sounds. Great freakin' book.

 

[JKessell]

Thanks for the responses. I'm still a bit confused so just to clarify:

I'm doing an arpeggio exercise where you limit yourself to 5 frets of the fretboard and play arpeggios up and down but only using the notes available to you within those 5 frets. The idea is to play it from the lowest possible note to the highest so like with the above example Cmaj7, if using the first 5 frets you'd start from the low E and up to the high C.

So really what I'm asking is does that way of playing the Cmaj7 arpeggio have a name?

I always thought that modes can be applied to anything including chords?
I = Ionian/CDEFGAB
ii = Dorian/DEFGABC
iii = Phrygian/EFGABCD
and so on...

 

[IJBurns]

Good exercise! I don't know of any specific names but then again there is a ton I don't know. I guess what I'm getting at is, you can think of each new arpeggio you're playing in the key of C as a mode of the key but without the notes that specify the sound of each mode then you're not technically playing the mode. If you just look at the 1 3 5 7 of each mode you have as individual arpeggios you'll have:
1 3 5 7 Maj
1 b3 5 b7 Min
1 b3 5 b7 Min
1 3 5 7 Maj
1 3 5 b7 Min
1 b3 5 b7 Min
1 b3 b5 b7 Half Dim

The only thing the above example doesn't include are the notes that make an individual mode sound like the mode. If you're just limited to 1 3 5 7 then you're not getting the non chord tones that make a given mode, a mode. For example, the 4th mode of C is F Lydian. If you just play 1 3 5 7 all you have is a major arpeggio. If you add in the note which makes it sound Lydian then you'd have to play 1 3 #4 5 7
Does that make any sense? I never claimed to be a good teacher

 

[IJBurns]

Ohhh! I can't edit on my phone but I definitely just noticed I marked the fifth mode as Minor and it is definitely MAJOR! Sorry!!!! Haha
1 3 5 b7 Maj

 

[IJBurns]

The way I would play a modal arpeggio as I talked about in my first response would be, I'll stick to the Lydian example for now:
1 3 5 7 9 #11
F A C E G B

 

[SteveCS]

@JKessell
@Mushroo gave the only correct answer in paragraph 1 of post 2. A chord, arpeggiated or not, with the root in the bass is said to be in root position. Any other chord tone in the bass is an inversion. Third in the bass, as in your case, is first inversion. 5th in the bass is second inversion. If the chord is a 7th and has the 7th in the bass it's a 3rd inversion, and so on. The arrangement of chord tones above the bass does not change the inversion number.

 

[IJBurns]

So there's no way of arppegiating a mode? Man, I've been doing this wrong the whole time! What the hell have I been playing? Seriously!

 

[IJBurns]

I don't want to hijack the thread but I'm legitimately concerned with what I was taught because if it was incorrect information then I need to correct that immediately! Thanks @SteveCS

 

[Mushroo]

I always thought that modes can be applied to anything including chords?
I = Ionian/CDEFGAB
ii = Dorian/DEFGABC
iii = Phrygian/EFGABCD
and so on...

I would simply call that exercise "the harmonized major scale" and it is a super-important exercise for sure, you are right to practice it! i - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii dim

For example in the key of C, the Harmonized C Major Scale looks like this:

CMaj7 - Dmin7 - Emin7 - FMaj7 - G7 - Amin7 - Bmin7b5 - CMaj7

Take some chords from the harmonized major scale, maybe mix in some non-diatonic chords with notes outside the major scale, and you are on your way to writing a potential hit song!

 

[Mushroo]

I don't want to hijack the thread but I'm legitimately concerned with what I was taught because if it was incorrect information then I need to correct that immediately! Thanks @SteveCS

You have my "permission" to think in terms of modes if it helps you remember the chord progression of the harmonized major scale. I am mathematical, so it is easier for me to remember "ii - V - I" than "Dorian - Mixolydian - Ionian." But your way also makes complete sense and is an internally consistent concept, I don't think you were taught anything "incorrect."

 

[Woolber]

I don't want to hijack the thread but I'm legitimately concerned with what I was taught because if it was incorrect information then I need to correct that immediately! Thanks @SteveCS

You were either taught incorrectly or it was a simple misunderstanding. Simple misunderstandings occur easily. Since you are only playing chord tones, you are playing arpeggios.

See SteveCS last reply.

Don't fret ( no pun intended ) just adjust your thinking a bit to understand what you're doing.

Just like a major scale is a scale, modes are scales. There can be harmony (chords) based off of scales but chords and scales are different. We'll leave it at that for now so as not to get too confusing.

 

[JKessell]

Ahh I see. So unless it has the characteristic note of the mode it's not really the mode. cool. thanks

 

[Fabio_MIJ]

a mode is just a scale as all other 7-note scales, you can build arpeggios on. EGBC can be called in different ways, a see it as Cmaj7 1st inversion (the 3rd at the bass).
E phrygian arpeggio is just E7. Phrygian is just a minor scale with b9. I would stop thinking of it i terms of the 3rd degree of a major scale.

 

[HolmeBass]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. If I'm thinking modes then I'll make sure and add whatever "color" notes make a specific sound for the given mode but then that gets me away from the idea of triads, 7 chord arpeggios, etc.
What you can do is extend the arpeggios into the upper structures to highlight the color tones so say for C Lydian you'd play C E G B D F# A C. That'll cover two octaves.
That's the method I use if I want to continue in the arpeggio mind set instead of going scalar and still highlight the sound of the "mode" if you will.
If I just gave terrible advise someone please correct me because I'm generally always just pulling it all out of my a** anyway.

This is a very cool way to think of this, and reminds me of great column in BP mag my Ric Fierabracci on Lydian and voice leading. He spelled the chord you outlined like this: Cmaj7add9,#11,13. Of course the idea was use the C Lydian mode.

It actually went between Eb Lydian and C Lydian, but in the music he spelled that chords out completely sort of like my example. So in that sense maybe there are no "Lydian arpeggios" but the concepts overlap completely - just spell the chord that has all the notes you want in your arpeggio.

 

[Reedt2000]

Modes and chords come from scales and for that reason I have always thought of the scales as the "parent". C major is the easiest to talk about because of the lack of sharps and flats.

C major can be arpeggiated from each note giving you the seven chords that make up the key of C major. When you do this (including the 7ths) you get Cmaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, Fmaj7, G7, Amin7, and B half dim 7 (also refered to as B min7 flat 5). For me that is the scale a group of notes from which the chords of the key are built.

The C major scale can also be called the C ionian mode, when I think of it in this way I think only of its relation to the Cmaj7 chord built from its root. The c Ionian mode and its alternative name the c major scale begin and end on c and proceed through all the natural notes (cdefgabc)

The d dorian mode also uses the same group of notes but starts on the d and goes until d again (defgabcd). Think of it as playing from the 2nd note of the cmajor scale until the 2nd note again. It is used against the D min7 chord which is also built from the 2nd note of the C major scale.

The process continues though the scale efgabcde is e phrygian and works ove the Em7 chord also built from the E (3rd note of c major)

Fgabcdef is f lydian for the Fmaj7 chord
Gabcdefg is g mixolydian for the G7 chord
Abcdefga is a aeolian for the Am7 chord
Bcdefgab is b locrian for the Bmin7 flat 5 chord.

It all comes from c major (and is built in the same way from every other major scale)

I've always thought of the mides only in relation to the chords they accompanied. I think of the scale as the parent that contains all of these musical structures.

Another approach is to think that the arpeggios (chord) is created by playing every other note from consecutive notes of the scale. Modes are created by playing EVERY note from consecutive notes of the scale.

I know this is a lot. It can be easier to visualize by sitting down at a piano and working through it using the white keys.

 

[Reedt2000]

 

[mambo4]

So really what I'm asking is does that way of playing the Cmaj7 arpeggio have a name?

Cmaj7 First inversion

As already mentioned by others:
Arpeggios are always chords, never scales or modes
Start a scale in a different spot: you get a mode
Start a chord or arpeggio on a different note: you get an inversion (not a mode.)

Sometimes people get confused, because you can generate an arpeggio
from a scale or a mode of that scale by playing every other note
but that resulting arpeggio is still a chord, and should not be thought of as a scale or mode.

scales, modes, and chords are all relative patterns,
but they are separate concepts and their qualities and attributes are not inherited or transferable.