My First Jazz Jam Session

[SBassman]

I think this is a great, practical book:

[And it even has - gasp - wicked tab that jazz purists often find so evil. ]

Amazon.com: Beginning Jazz Bass: How to Create Jazz Bass Lines Including Two-Feel, Walking Bass, Bossa Nova, Ballads, Fills and More! (9781423474029): Dominik Hauser: Books

 

[redname]

All those Apeggios and extenions are already in the modes if you apply them in the right way, after that it's just a matter of note choices which is why I believe it's also great place to start, especially if you want to build facility across the fretboard.

then why bother to go one whole big round learning the modes than to just learn the chord structure and/or apeggios directly?

 

[henry2513]

then why bother to go one whole big round learning the modes than to just learn the chord structure and/or apeggios directly?

You want to learn them both because they work together ina sense. For instance you can take e minor chord and choose to play the arpeggio or you can choose its relative major which is Gplay g ionian or even a dorian and etc etc. The modes give you more choices.

 

[redname]

You want to learn them both because they work together ina sense. For instance you can take e minor chord and choose to play the arpeggio or you can choose its relative major which is Gplay g ionian or even a dorian and etc etc. The modes give you more choices.

your point can be valid but that's just for playing notes that are in the scale rite?

by doing so, the walking bass lines won't have any chord quality tones.

For eg. A G major chord is being played, theoretically, it's ok to play all the notes in the G major scale but it won't sound like a G major chord without the major 3rd.

 

[henry2513]

your point can be valid but that's just for playing notes that are in the scale rite?

by doing so, the walking bass lines won't have any chord quality tones.

For eg. A G major chord is being played, theoretically, it's ok to play all the notes in the G major scale but it won't sound like a G major chord without the major 3rd.

What I mentioned there is mainly for soloing but you can certainly use it in your walking lines to add contrast or another dimension to the music, especially if there is a piano player or guitar player already reinforcing the chords.

That chordal approach to using the modes probably beyond the scope of just walking lines but you can certainly use the modes for walking without sounding like you're stuck running up and down a scale, without doing what I mentioned above.

If you're playingG mixolidian over a dominant chord at lets say the middle end of the fretboard you don't have to play it linearly - you can certainly use intervals, you can extend down to the notes D dorian and back down to G mixolidian again down at the lower end if you want to.

I'm sure many people will say - "oh that's not playing the modes" and that's true but it's a practical way to apply the knowledge that you gain from learning them.

There's tons of ways to apply them and yeah certainly this approach won't work over something like Giant Steps, for that you need another layer of knowledge and that's where knowing apreggios, what passing tones to use, substitutions etc come in handy but imo the foundation is built off knowing the modes and then building on top of them.

 

[redname]

What I mentioned there is mainly for soloing but you can certainly use it in your walking lines to add contrast or another dimension to the music, especially if there is a piano player or guitar player already reinforcing the chords.

That chordal approach to using the modes probably beyond the scope of just walking lines but you can certainly use the modes for walking without sounding like you're stuck running up and down a scale, without doing what I mentioned above.

If you're playingG mixolidian over a dominant chord at lets say the middle end of the fretboard you don't have to play it linearly - you can certainly use intervals, you can extend down to the notes D dorian and back down to G mixolidian again down at the lower end if you want to.

I'm sure many people will say - "oh that's not playing the modes" and that's true but it's a practical way to apply the knowledge that you gain from learning them.

There's tons of ways to apply them and yeah certainly this approach won't work over something like Giant Steps, for that you need another layer of knowledge and that's where knowing apreggios, what passing tones to use, substitutions etc come in handy but imo the foundation is built off knowing the modes and then building on top of them.

oic, I was having the impression that this thread was talking about walking bass lines all along. Sorry

 

[henry2513]

What I mentioned there is mainly for soloing but you can certainly use it in your walking lines to add contrast or another dimension to the music, especially if there is a piano player or guitar player already reinforcing the chords.

 

[Snarf]

What I mentioned there is mainly for soloing but you can certainly use it in your walking lines to add contrast or another dimension to the music, especially if there is a piano player or guitar player already reinforcing the chords.

That chordal approach to using the modes probably beyond the scope of just walking lines but you can certainly use the modes for walking without sounding like you're stuck running up and down a scale, without doing what I mentioned above.

If you're playingG mixolidian over a dominant chord at lets say the middle end of the fretboard you don't have to play it linearly - you can certainly use intervals, you can extend down to the notes D dorian and back down to G mixolidian again down at the lower end if you want to.

I'm sure many people will say - "oh that's not playing the modes" and that's true but it's a practical way to apply the knowledge that you gain from learning them.

There's tons of ways to apply them and yeah certainly this approach won't work over something like Giant Steps, for that you need another layer of knowledge and that's where knowing apreggios, what passing tones to use, substitutions etc come in handy but imo the foundation is built off knowing the modes and then building on top of them.

The only really major difference between Giant Steps and any other tune that came before it is that the keys change by major thirds and it's really fast. It doesn't really demand anything different of a player except for a lot of practice to get used to the fast and comparably awkward key changes.

IMO passing tones aren't just key in Giant Steps, they're key in every single tune you could play. Every good piano, guitar, sax player, etc, uses them as the basis for ornamenting the chord changes. I'm a big proponent of practicing arpeggios with a half step above, below, above then below, and below then above each chord tone, and then do it with all the tensions.

Don't get me wrong, it's important to know and practice your modes. And modes actually really are very useful in soloing when it comes to altered dominant chords. But I think your example of "G mixolydian over G7" is lacking because you really do have to avoid the 4/11. And I listen to students practicing, and they're stepping all over that 4. That's a case in point why I think making modal playing the focus of improvisation is seriously flawed in functional harmony. When it comes down to it, I think just thinking about the key center and where keys change is the best way to go about it (**in harmonically simple tunes**), because you can ornament and flip the major scale to be anything you want, and you're not burdened by thinking about altering each dorian, phrygian, lydian, etc. By using the key as the focus, you can become much more fluent in your playing. Plus, just about any arpeggio within the major scale is going to fit with any chord in the key.

YMMV.

 

[henry2513]

The only really major difference between Giant Steps and any other tune that came before it is that the keys change by major thirds and it's really fast. It doesn't really demand anything different of a player except for a lot of practice to get used to the fast and comparably awkward key changes.

IMO passing tones aren't just key in Giant Steps, they're key in every single tune you could play. Every good piano, guitar, sax player, etc, uses them as the basis for ornamenting the chord changes. I'm a big proponent of practicing arpeggios with a half step above, below, above then below, and below then above each chord tone, and then do it with all the tensions.

Don't get me wrong, it's important to know and practice your modes. And modes actually really are very useful in soloing when it comes to altered dominant chords. But I think your example of "G mixolydian over G7" is lacking because you really do have to avoid the 4/11. And I listen to students practicing, and they're stepping all over that 4. That's a case in point why I think making modal playing the focus of improvisation is seriously flawed in functional harmony. When it comes down to it, I think just thinking about the key center and where keys change is the best way to go about it (**in harmonically simple tunes**), because you can ornament and flip the major scale to be anything you want, and you're not burdened by thinking about altering each dorian, phrygian, lydian, etc. By using the key as the focus, you can become much more fluent in your playing. Plus, just about any arpeggio within the major scale is going to fit with any chord in the key.

YMMV.

I'm not advocating making it the focal point but I think that it, along with all the other approaches, is a very valid one, one that I don't think you can't discount because you believe the 4/11 should be avoided.

 

[FretlessDave]

Cubop..Glad to hear that you're determined to keep at it.One of the poopiest feelings I ever had as a musician was sitting in over my head at a jazz jam session when I was in my early 20's.It caused a lot of self doubt,but I kept playing and practicing.
To this day I'm still trying to figure out how the top improvisors do what they do.Jazz is very difficult to play really well and the best of the best never stop trying to get better in some way.