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Double Bass " Name That Bass "

#61
Wow, what a trip......
Not trying to 'bump' my own thread but I was pretty excited yesterday and it hasn't worn off yet even after a good nights sleep.....
I showed the Bass to Paul and we used a 'black light'/ultra violiot, to check the Varnish. I think Martin was right to a degree but not 100%. The Bass has an 'extra' coat of Varnish covering up the original Varnish completly over the entire Bass.
And yes Martin, The top layer of Varnish seems to be Spirit based. I gave the 'go-ahead' for Paul to take off the junk on top and let the original lighter golden Oil Varnish see the light of day again.
Paul seems to think it is from Northern Europe and not Italy so far. Most likely England or France as they are just across the channel from each other.
He will be able to tell much more once he examines the original Varnish and gets the top off.
The Purfling in the Top is European and so is the Back 'n' Rib wood. USA is most likely ruled out excepet for the 19th. century repairs in New England of the Scroll and Back Brace as well as the newer Varnishing.
The Period is estimated at this time to be between the latter 18th century and early 19th century.
I will post more as the imformation becomes available.
Arnold, you were right also about the String Length. The Bass is currently about 43 1/2 to 44'' with its current 'D' neck. The top Bout being 22in. across making it extremly hard to play as well. This is maybe why the Bass was put aside for the last 80-100 years and not touched...... It's just too BIG! It is a very large 7/8 or smaller Full Sized 4/4 Bass. You Guys can tell me from the measurements posted on my website just what it is. A 42" String length cannot be achieved unless the Bass is "CUT".... Oops...... I said a 'No No' word... Sorry guys....
Since all 4 Bouts of the Bass have already been trimmed a long time ago (most likely from the Back shrinkage), I think a little more 'Cutting' can't hurt. It must be made to be Playable since the Music has changed as far as the Role of the Bass in the Orchestra goes from when this Bass was first made.
Oh, and Arnold, Paul liked the 'F' holes as well ....

Questions???? keep em comming along with your guesses.

PART II : Basses I played there on Saturday.

Well, since Paul and I go way back, he let me try just about every Bass I asked for, moving cases and stools and other Basses out of the way to reach them.
Here they are in about the order I played them as they were accessable.
Luigi Bajoni,.....a beautiful Santaguiliana,.....an 18th century William Forster I&II (most likely) with a full 7/8 Cello shape with 8" ribs from bottom Block to Neck Block,..... G.B.Guadagnini x 2 - two of them... twins except they sound a bit different....,a Beautiful Gilkes-English, and a few others; Small Tyrolean, French Derazey and a Beautiful Czeck Bass.

I hope my Bass comes out as nice as the Basses I played. He also had a Ceruiti in Repair as well as a small Americian Bass from Jay or Isa White.

Questions???? I'm an open book.... read me !!!
 
#62
KSB - Ken Smith said:
...we used a 'black light'/ultra violiot, to check the Varnish...
Click to expand...
I experienced this years ago, too. A violinist/ repairman friend made a hobby of researching varnish recipes used by makers and repairers of older instruments. He had a violin from the 1800's that showed the usual signs of wear born by an instrument that old. In natural light the instrument appeared to be pretty much the same colour all over. Under ultraviolet light, the varnish appeared surprisingly mottly- different areas appeared grey, black, mint green or salmon pink in colour. It had obviously been repaired and had the finish touched up with many different varnishes over its lifetime.
This man was of the opinion that the varnish has a profound effect on the sound of an instrument, and we could never hope to replicate the varnish of the famous Cremonese makers, as we have no idea how their 100% organic compounds have changed over time. Interesting stuff.
 
#63
I'm just hoping that the junk Varnish on top can be taken off without loosing any of the original Varnish. I have never heard this Bass at all anyway so it's impossible to tell what sound differences the Varnish clean-up will do. Besides, all the repairs and the slight Shoulder Cutting will make it sound different as well from before the restoration even if I could have heard the Bass before in it's pre-repaired state.
 
#65
Czech aka Bohemia has been speculated by some here but no one guessing has examined the Bass close up in person.

When I brought into NY recently for restoration The Purfling on the top showed signs of Northern Europe, mainly England or France. When the Top comes off and the Varnish is examined, we will have a better idea of it's origin.

The wood does look English and the painted Purfling on the back is English Ink. The Slope of the back looks French but it may not be original.

Thanks for the interest..... I will tell all as I learn more.
 
#66
Ken

You know if I had that bass, I would leave the mensure as is or reduce it to say about 43" and convert it to a 5-string! Did I mention that it is a big bass ;) ?

Another thought about origin: James Cole, Manchester mid 1800's. Cole used that gradually tapering angled back as did Tarr on some basses.

Jon
 
#67
English has been considered. The Purfling on the top has beed identified as "Northern Europe". That leaves France and England. As you may or may not know, many French makers worked in England and visa versa in the early 19th century and maybe earlier.

Some English Violins were acutally made by French makers working in English shops. Some other English Violins were actually made in France but completed and Labeled in England to fill demand.
My refrence: "250 Years of Violin Craft in Soho" by Adam Whone.

It pays to study! You can never read or see to much. We have a short life in which to learn about the 400+ year history of our Instruments, their creators and makers.

Jneuman, Thanks for bringing this dead thread back to life. I am just starting to study the English School of making. This is mainly due to my two new acqusitions of my Mystery Bass and my classic & rare Samuel Gilkes Bass.
 
#68
Ken

I had not heard that before. That's very interesting. There are several books available about the British Violin that are worth getting if your interested. Maybe you have them already. Unfortunately I can't remember the titles off hand. I would be suprised if you bass was actually from France since French basses from that period rarely exceeded large 3/4 size. Several things I have read indicate that English instruments from the pre-panormo period were very large.

Keep us posted.

Jon
 
#69
Yes, we were looking at early English from 1750 or after and maybe as new as 1825-1850 but until we get the top off, the Mystery continues. One interesting thing is the Back repairs. The original Cross bars were replaced with an X-Brace system. Scars from the old Bars are visible. This Bass came here at least 100 years ago if not more but the X-Brace looks very old and from about 1850 if not earlier. This Repair of course was done in 19th century New England by followers of the Presscott School if not my by themselves. The Scroll closely resembles an early Prescott as well as a White Bros. Bass from that period. From this we can tell the Bass was repaired then and there.
 
#70
KSB - Ken Smith said:
Yes, we were looking at early English from 1750 or after and maybe as new as 1825-1850 but until we get the top off, the Mystery continues. One interesting thing is the Back repairs. The original Cross bars were replaced with an X-Brace system. Scars from the old Bars are visible. This Bass came here at least 100 years ago if not more but the X-Brace looks very old and from about 1850 if not earlier. This Repair of course was done in 19th century New England by followers of the Presscott School if not my by themselves. The Scroll closely resembles an early Prescott as well as a White Bros. Bass from that period. From this we can tell the Bass was repaired then and there.
Click to expand...

Ken

Why was Prescott (or one of his disciples) ruled out in the first place? I can't remember back that far. Was it the lack of outside linings and the neck joint?

Jon
 
#71
Prescott was ruled out because it looks nothing like a Prescott. The Top has northern Europe style purfling. The back is un-purfled but has some faint spots of painted purfling. This has been identified as "English Ink".

The Wood is Extremely Fine grained Spruce of some sort. 350 growth rings within 14" at the lower bout. A bit too fine for North American Wood I believe. This is "Ice Age" type growth rings from Europe. The Back and sides are beautifully Quartered English Sycamore with Spaghetti type Flames.

I believe Prescott and his followers mainly used Wood from the New England area as he and Dearborn had thier own lumber business.

This wood appears to have been expensive by comparison at the time this Bass was probably made. The Bass is also very big and may have been a special order. I can't imagine a maker building a Bass like this with near "full sized" measurements and such high quality wood usually found only on the best Violins and 'Cellos.

For these reasons, I don't think it was made in America but was brought here on a ship at least once if not twice possibly by a Musician playing on the Trans-Atlantic Boat as the previous owner came over later with the Bass "as-is". The Ship Musician may have had it repaired here on one of his journeys and took it back on his next trip after being fixed and then maybe sold to the Man that brought it over for the last time.

I speculate that due to a combination of being so big n difficult to play, being in dis-repair and it being cheaper and easier to get a regular sized easier playing Bass in good condition that 'This' is why the Bass has beed un-touched for the last 100 years or so.

This is all just a guess but a very possible situation or maybe just a fictional story...... Gee.."If this Bass could only talk" !! Oops....... sorry Stanley....lol

Hey........ If I am worng, then fine... I don't mind if it's an early Prescott or something similar....... I just wanna get to the bottom of this Mystery.
 
#74
The scroll looks very french - the center is vertically dead center, and horizontally illustrates a golden-section relationsship. But then, you say the scroll isn't original, so that doesn't mean terribly much by itself.

The F holes are very symmetrical - another frenchy characteristic, and did you say that the ribs don't taper much?

It looks to me (on my monitor) that the varnish has a lot of reds and purples in it. Maybe a little green?
 
#75
Ths Scroll, Originally a 3-string looks to be made from Sugar Maple. I noticed that when leveling it for the new Cheeks I added.
The Varnish on the Scroll also looks different.

The Red in the Varnish is not original either. The Original Varnish looks to be a Golden Brown. The rest of the color is age and oxidation.

I think this Bass traveled across the Ocean a few times on the Great Ships of the 19th century. The Back and Scroll repairs look to be mid 19th century but the Bass is reported to have come over from Europe from the previous owner b4 me around 1908. We have the Back and Scroll dated between 1840 and 1880 if not at different times for each. I have the 3-string tailpiece as well. The 4 Gears looks to be early to mid 19th century with one of them just slightly different as if to have been added later on that Scroll. The holes from the 3 and 4-string are all the same size as if they did the conversion, moved two of the gears and added a forth leaving the lowest gear (E) in it's original spot. I would have to guess that the Bass was a 3-string to begin with as a replaced Scroll would most likley have the same amount of holes for the present owner/player at that time.
 
#77
It had one of those ugly neck splices in a 'u' shape after carving somewhrer in the middle of the neck. Maybe the heel of the neck is original to that neck block but I doubt that as well as being original. They must have spliced the neck/scroll on when the old one broke off and was un repairable. Much easier than a neck/scroll graft for sure.
 
#79
My Martini is on the Table as we speak. Before that he was working on an Asa/Jay White Bass and just finished it b4 starting the Martini. I expect the the Martini done shortly. Then this "lil monster" will get started on. The weather was a major factor. You can't do Rib or Back restoration in the summer. Oct/Nov is the best time to start on Maple-type repairs.
 

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