Double Bass Neck heel crack, fingerboard modification, no budget...

[Silverface]

Another question: what's happening at the neck tenon-to-neck block joint?

As mentioned above - nothing. Inspected with my fiberoptic camera system and all interior joints are tight.

Keep in mind that the button ("neck heel cap" as you referred to it in your earlier post)

What I meant by "button" is the small, rounded top of the back itself, - ot a structural part.

Cheap ebony fingerboards are a complete waste of $$$$$$$$! The main cost with a fingerboard replacement is labor. Why go to all of that trouble so you can save $75 in materials

I'm not looking at ultra-cheap board, but I can't afford a $700 one - not for a bass that cost me $300 and is played (very badly) for fun.

What "trouble? Installing one that's the correct size is a simple "tech job" for me.

Please guys - try to understand the context, both is finances and usage. I'm not "an upright bass player", I'm a guitar player that's played some upright bass.. I can't gig because of health reasons. t's an instrument I have for "fun" and a little recording, and is far down the priority list when it comes to my musical priorities. I bought it to help a friend's kid out financially - I didn't plan on buying another one with the limited amount of use it will get.

Any chance of getting your "friend" to take some responsibility for the damage

NO! There's not a lot of space here and it was simply an accident. It would be absurdly rude for me to even ask.

I'm not clear that you have the tools or experience to properly shape a fingerboard - this is not a "plug and play" situation.

Considering I already did after rebuilding it - which you'd know had you read the previous posts and looked at the images - what are you saying, that I must have done it "wrong"? The labor alone of having a new one installed is prohibitive - and in *this* context impossible. Can't happen. So I don't get the point.

On the fingerboard, would it be practical to insert a thin shim of maple between the FB and neck as part of this repair, thus giving a little more meat for dressing/shaping/etc.? Seems like that would be less costly than a whole new FB.

I don't think you read my previous posts. The fingerboard on it that I repaired and modified is perfectly usable. There is no need for extra "meat".

It plays OK but 1) I don't care for the look of the multiple repaired cracks, and 2) I would prefer one with absolutely NO sign of a "Romburg Bevel", which causes me quite a bit of pain in my (arthritic and damaged) left thumb joint and wrist. I did a partial re-shaping to reduce it and it's better, but no cracks and zero "hump" would be my preference.

Yes, I know how to use radius gages, measure relief etc.

Are you sure your separation is fatal to the health of the instrument?

The more string tension that's applied the more the top of the joint opens. The difference is in thousandths of an inch, but it should not open at all . So, yes - I'm concerned about the integrity of the neck joint.

 

[misterbadger]

Sounds like you're all set. Best of luck with your project.

 

[turf3]

I don't think you read my previous posts. The fingerboard on it that I repaired and modified is perfectly usable. There is no need for extra "meat".

It plays OK but 1) I don't care for the look of the multiple repaired cracks, and 2) I would prefer one with absolutely NO sign of a "Romburg Bevel", which causes me quite a bit of pain in my (arthritic and damaged) left thumb joint and wrist. I did a partial re-shaping to reduce it and it's better, but no cracks and zero "hump" would be my preference.

Yes, I know how to use radius gages, measure relief etc.

/QUOTE]

OK, yes, I gathered that, but if you want to eliminate all remaining Romberg bevel you can install a new fingerboard of high quality ebony ($$$$), or, as I was respectfully suggesting, you could (I think) insert a shim of maple (much less $$$) between your existing FB and the neck, thus raising up your existing FB and providing additional stock for planing and eliminating the bevel. Of course this doesn't do anything about repaired breaks. It's my understanding (without personal experience) that ebony is stiffer than maple, so one has to consider whether reducing the total assembled stiffness of the neck is worth it, to get rid of the remains of the bevel. On the third hand (or fourth), if your arthritis is making it difficult to play at all with the bevel, then it sounds like moving to a standard radius shape will be worth it no matter what.

I also think the fact that you can measure a difference in separation at the failed glue joint in the heel (because that's what it is, as you have so clearly indicated) indicates that the neck to body joint is not stable and needs something done. I have this sneaking suspicion that if it's moving around that means the mortise and tenon joint is partially failed, and that the only long term solution is going to involve pulling the neck off the body and re-gluing. But if you have mechanical skills and you are not in a hurry, maybe you can take it slow and easy and take the neck out of there, clean up the mortise and tenon joint, and fix the whole thing.

 

[turf3]

GRrr - it looks like my whole response disappeared.

As far as the maple shim, I am just thinking of a way to raise up the surface of the board so you could plane out the remaining bevel. Of course it doesn't do anything about existing repaired breaks. But a thin piece of hard maple is a lot less $$$ than a new ebony fingerboard.

I think it sounds like the integrity of the neck to neck block joint is questionable, if it opens up more when you increase string tension. From your description of yourself, it sounds like you may be able to actually take the neck off there and fix the whole thing right. I fear that just inserting a bolt will not fix the underlying issue.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

GRrr - it looks like my whole response disappeared.

It didn't disappear, just the opening bracket of the closing /QUOTE got lost, so your comment was included in the quote. You might be able to edit this and your response would be visible in the standard way.
You are not the only one who accidently deleted a part of a tag.

 

[GretschWretch]

If I understand correctly, if you tighten the strings the crack in the neck heel widens. Then why not tighten the strings, wick some hot hide glue into the crack, slack the strings to close the crack and then clamp? That heel looks like two pieces to me as well, in which case the "crack" might simply be a failed glue join and not a sign of trouble at the block.

Romberg bevels can be taken down with a lot of elbow grease and patience, but to get a completely symmetrical curve across the fingerboard will require more elbow grease and patience than most people are willing to give to the job.

 

[Silverface]

Important update & major situation change -

I was finally able to connect with Upton Bass (I think phone call and email timing on my part were a problem, being 4 time zones away) *after* a new issue developed first thing this morning. We had several discussions today -

In short - the back half of the "heel" is a fixed part of the neck block assembly (I'm intentionally using simplified terminology - it's part of the body & block assembly - just NOT part of the neck itself)) - the joint is obviously a joint and not a "crack".

Anyway - this morning the front "half - the neck assembly itself - was slightly loose, and the neck seams became obvious. String tension had pulled the neck loose.

This particular Upton model was likely made in Romania in the early/mid 2000's before they moved all operations to the U.S., and the neck is fitted with a dovetail joint. There's no reason to remove it - that would just over-complicate things.

The plan is to insert a 1/2" dowel from the front of the neck (the fingerboard is off), extending appx 1/2" into the rear "heel" section, with hot hide glue injected into/flooding the heel joint and injected into all other joints. The dowel will be pounded in "dry" to avoid hydraulic splitting. But as the back seam is open at the "button" enough for drill clearance I may drill a very small-diameter "pressure relief" hole from the back of the heel to the dowel hole.

The rear seam/button will be glued after dowel insertion and the whole thing clamped.

That should do the trick, and I'll reinstall the fingerboard after a bit more re-shaping. Upton doesn't have pre-shaped 'boards, but they thought my repair and modification - based on my knowledge of relief, radius etc - would work out just fine. Can't do much about the look. but it'll be perfectly functional.

The only downside to the dowel insertion is that the neck will be more difficult to remove in the future if necessary, but it's doubtful I'll need to deal with that. And I leave copious notes so my kids will know what the scoop is (and the only "unusual" thing it will really need a razor saw cut at the heel joint).

With this repair I'll be able to get away from the muddy-sounding nylon strings as well, which may suck me into playing it a bit more, so it's all good - hopefully.

Thanks all for your suggestions.

 

[vejesse]

This is Gliga made bass. There's likely going to be a factory installed small dowel between the two sections of the built up heel. If the neck is now pulling out that little dowel failed. After reading all this I don't understand why it hasn't been suggested that you remove the neck and the dislocated neck heel section from the joint before trying to repair it. Why would Upton suggest what you just described above? Hard to forsee success with that. Other than the heel separation (and the fingerboard damage) the neck is ok, right? Am I missing something?

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

The plan is to insert a 1/2" dowel from the front of the neck (the fingerboard is off), extending appx 1/2" into the rear "heel" section

Ah...removing wood from the heel weakens what remains. I’ve repaired those repairs. Not fun.

 

[Silverface]

There's likely going to be a factory installed small dowel between the two sections of the built up heel. If the neck is now pulling out that little dowel failed.

There's not. Moot point.

Ah...removing wood from the heel weakens what remains. I’ve repaired those repairs. Not fun.

And just as many say inserting a maple dowel with different grain orientation *adds* strength - if done correctly.

Removing the neck and doing a re-set is not work I intend to undertake from both a technical and physical standpoint (it would be physically very difficult for me). Criticizing proposed methodogy (with the added "dire consequences" warning) is utterly useless without an alternative proposal - again, one that will "make do" given my limited resources. That and your unnecessary post regarding pricing indicate to me that you may have a well-deserved reputation as a "negative poster".

It's not going to get done the way you want. And it's not going to get done the way *I* want. It will be done the best way possible in this situation, and the manufacturer feels the dowel is the best situational" solution.

If you feel strongly that it's a bid idea please post pictures of repairs you've done when this *specific* method was used. You must have records.

And also provide a viable alternative. If I see proof *and* an alternative method I can afford to do (and handle), great.

Thanks

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

It’s your bass. I have zero skin in this game.

 

[Silverface]

It’s your bass. I have zero skin in this game.

If you want to be *helpful*, again - please show examples of same-type repairs that have failed, and a workable alternative.

Otherwise I can only guess that you like to be critical and/or make up potential problems to mess with owners of lesser instruments. I certainly know many of those types on other forums. The proof is in the postings.

I would truly appreciate seeing examples of failures and being given a better alternative that fits the situation.

But a dismissive post essentially stating "it's your problem, not mine" is very rude IMO.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Do your own homework and stow your insecurities.

You came to this forum hat in hand and are responding with defensiveness and abuse because you’re not getting the answer you want to hear.

Nobody here owes you a damn thing, pal.

Go ahead and drill out 20% of the nice Carpathian maple in that neck joint and see what happens.

 

[Silverface]

Do your own homework and stow your insecurities.

You came to this forum hat in hand and are responding with defensiveness and abuse because you’re not getting the answer you want to hear.

Nobody here owes you a damn thing, pal.

Go ahead and drill out 20% of the nice Carpathian maple in that neck joint and see what happens.

1. "Hat in hand" is insulting someone for being honest about difficult life situations. I'd rather not be in this situation and it's not easy opening up about it - but if I didn't the whole thread would go beyond what I could handle very quickly. It was a courtesy to not waste peoples' time. You DO owe an apology.

2. I've been open to any suggestion that fits the situation. There's not a thing I've rejected if it's been on topic. Answers outside the criteria are simply off-topic. Virtually every forum works that way. There's no defensiveness - I explained the situation and plenty of folks were happy to come up with ideas that fit. If I was rude to anyone I apologize - except where someone was insulting.

3. Saying "nobody owes you a thing" is misleading, as I never said anyone did (except for the apology above). I knew there was the possibility that nobody could come up with any workable solutions that were practical given the situation. But the practice of of criticizing others' technical suggestions without offering alternatives tends to be abrasive and creates conflict. It's especially out-of-place when the method came from someone not even on-site and has no opportunity to explain it.

But it's a moot point when nothing was provided to either back up the criticism or provide a viable alternative - and I DID ask for that kind of backup, which is perfectly justified.

And your criticism was laughably exaggerated - you really need to work on your math skills. Maybe others take you at your word. They shouldn't. *Twenty* percent is SO far off a couple of us are sitting here wondering if you have ever actually done tech work of any kind - or just talk like you have. Nobody could be THAT far off that has a tech background unless they assume nobody will ever check their numbers.

4. I've seen you post "see what happens" answers in other threads. Looks to me like you badly *want* to appear like a tech whiz. Best of luck, and hope life gets better for you.

Thanks to everyone that contributed constructive suggestions. I really appreciate the assistance. And good, bad or ugly, I'll post the results.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

You might want to have a look at removable neck constructions. I have no links to examples, but that would be a research work you can easily do from home using the Internet.
An simple solution is the Christopher, a complicated one is from a well known French bass builder whose name I cannot remember at the moment.

I'm with KFS not to remove too much wood from the neck. Just take the warning and maybe discuss with Upton again if that won't might get a problem with the thick dowel.

On my very simple plywood that I got when I was fifteen (broken neck, no bridge, tailpiece and strings) all local luthiers (no bass specialists) refused to do a repair because of the cost. It would have landed in the heating if I haven't saved it from that. Then my father got to a local woodworker who glued the parts together and put a long thicker screw through the fingerboard in the neck heel and sealed the surface with black wax. It was not nice to put the screw through the fingerboard, but it worked and I played the instrument for at least 10 years until it was stolen from the cellar.

It always depends how much the instrument is worth.
I'm sure KFS has seen a lot of nice instruments that were badly repaired when they reached him.
So he doesn't want a nice instrument to get almost destroyed by a bad repair.

You could use a screw under the fingerboard but would not be able to refasten it without removing the fingerboard first (that was easy on my instrument, but never needed during the time I had this instrument).
But you can also try it from the other side, using a nut with a plate under the fingerboard and a not too wide hole through the neck heel and through the button and put a long bolt with a metal and rubber washer into the button hole and screw it through the nut. (You need to care for the length of the bolt, otherwise you can easily force the fingerboard off the neck.)
So, if you can get the neck (perhaps with some help of other people) off the neck block, you can even get a removable neck instrument that way.
Just leave enough wood (probably as much as possible in any direction) around the hole and only make it as large as needed. It is easy to make it larger later, but impossible to get the strength back.

BTW, several small screws are sometimes used to temporarily clamp the parts well together when glueing a broken neck.

At the end it's your decision what you do. Since you got some information about the value of the bass, you might be well prepared for that.

 

[Silverface]

You might want to have a look at removable neck constructions. I have no links to examples, but that would be a research work you can easily do from home using the Internet.

Thanks much for the detailed response and multiple suggestions.

I looked into several alternative reinforcement systems ( one bolt system is illustrated early in the thread) as well. I wanted to avoid non-reversible repairs - having done many types of instrument repair/restoration for decades I've seen/fixed plenty of "horror story" jobs myself. I do want to avoid screws though.

Removing the neck and dealing with resetting it, though, would be a physically difficult job for me, and jigs/other tools needed to do that and "resize/shape" a fingerboard I no longer have or are too difficult to use. And the very limited amount of upright playing I do (with zero playing out) combined with limited financial resources are why I originally laid out the "make do" criteria I did. In a perfect world I'd load it up and take it to Jon Peterson for a neck reset and new fingerboard - but it's simply not possible. It might be on the wrong side of the "is it worth the cost" balance-beam even if I had unlimited financial resources.

This is why Upton's minimally-invasive dowel placement seems to be the best proposed repair method. The only downside is that the dowel will make it more difficult to remove the dovetail-fit neck in the future, but the only change is an added razor-saw cut to slice the dowel at the existing heel joint (and I'll leave notes for my kids if I kick the bucket before it does! ). Otherwise it'll be bone stock, which is how I'd prefer it.

At 66 with physical issues I probably have 5-10 years of (VERY part-time - maybe a TOTAL of an hour a week once my left wrist is surgically repaired) playing left, so if it lasts that long, great. If not, I paid $300 for it (plus strings & a new bridge), so I'm not out a huge investment and if necessary will sell it as a "project" bass.

To repeat something I've tried to make real clear - upright bass isn't my primary, or second, or 3rd, 4th or 5th instrument. I used to gig on electric and upright bass in two bands because I could "get away" with playing upright doing country-rock, old country and bluegrass. But it's ben years since I owned one and this sort of showed up on my doorstep needing a home (and repairs) - it'll be fun to have functional again. Even for a while.

I understand some people flip out when repairs are not done in the best "possible" way to the nth degree - but I've learned over 50 years of tech work that "possible" is a relative term. It takes some longer than others to learn that simple fact.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Let’s take the personal stuff to pm or just drop it. It isn’t productive, and just details the thread. Advice is requested in the OP and given in the responses. Whether it is taken or not, asking for and getting advice is what the thread is about.

We have seen a number of recent threads where a lower level repair choice is taken rather than a more complicated or expensive one. While this is obviously not what some would want, the ultimate decision is up to the owner of the bass. As long as good advice is being given, I think everyone should be able to sleep at night .

 

[GretschWretch]

Before doing anything non-reversible (like drilling holes), I still would try syringing hot hide glue (or even epoxy!) into the crack and clamping. If the glue does not hold then you can go to the hole-and-dowel repair. But if it does . . . . If the heel is glued to the button to maintain some sort of structural integrity, then gluing at the crack, where there is more surface area than at the button, should also restore integrity.

I had a 1/4 Englehardt shipped from Houston which, in spite of the seller's protestations that he knew how to pack, arrived with a heel break. Since that break was something that should not be there I opted for epoxy over HHG. The repair has held up for more than a dozen years.

 

[Silverface]

Before doing anything non-reversible (like drilling holes), I still would try syringing hot hide glue (or even epoxy!) into the crack and clamping.

Thanks - it's a long thread so it was easy to miss, but that was done before the first post - and it't was noted and confirmed by Upton that it's not a crack, it's a joint. The rear portion of the heel is part of the neck block, and only the front portion of the neck/heel is attached/(semi)removable via the dovetail joint.

Because it failed (and in weak hope of stumbling on a better-conditin fingerboard close enough to fine-tune) I started the thread. Upton had these built in Romania - they don't use the "stacked heel" on their current basses and based on the repeated failure of this one's heel joint (accident or not) they think reinforcement with a small 1/2" dowel would be good insurance.

As long as it's a known modification it's reversible with the addition of a razor saw cut in a small section of a joint that would have to be opened anyway. It wouldn't be needed with a new neck, which would be fitted to the existing neck joint - which has undoubtedly opened a small amount due to damage/movement.

 

[james condino]

How is a syringe full of epoxy reversible?????