Need some advice.. cab building and speaker choices.

[Petebass]

Lets say we're looking for a cab that's 250 litres in total or thereabouts. The SWR cab you mentioned looks like it's -3dB at 55Hz for we're going for loud and punchy.

I scanned Bgavin's spreadsheet for something that's likes 40-60 litres per speaker using the "Optimal Flat" allignment. Sorry Bruce, I think it works better for bass cabs. It is my opinion tht SBB4 seems to work better for recorded music reproduction and Hi-Fi type bass sound.

The only speakers that looks decent to me is the is the Eminence Deltalite 2510 and the B&C 10HPL51. Both have Neodymium magnets so they are very lightweight. Both like about 35-36 litres per speaker, Both are -3dB at 65Hzish but with 6 of them you should be able to produce enough lows to keep you happy.

The B&C is only 150w each but with 6 of them, that's a 900w speaker cab that's 215 litres in total (tuned to 58Hz). That's pretty compact for a 6x10. I've run it through WinIDS Pro and it looks like it's good for 430watts at 84Hz before hitting X-max (ie distortion). The Eminence makes an 1800watt speaker at 250 litres (tuned to 55Hz), but it's only good for 330watts at 82Hz before Xmax. The cab is a bit bigger but it's still smaller that you're typical 6x10. For reference, the SWR 6x10 is 350 litres. I tried making both boxes bigger in the hope of getting a lower -3dB point, but all I did was create issues with Group Delay and excursion. The speakers on the spreadsheet with loiwer -3dB points all look like sub type drivers with low sensitivity and poor response in the mid and high frequencies.

The Frequency response and Group delay graphs look remarkably similar for both speakers.

I'd also recommend fitting a horn for some high end snap and sizzle.

Where's Bgavin? He's much better at this than I am!

 

[luknfur]

Lets say we're looking for a cab that's 250 litres in total or thereabouts. The SWR cab you mentioned looks like it's -3dB at 55Hz for we're going for loud and punchy.

I scanned Bgavin's spreadsheet for something that's likes 40-60 litres per speaker using the "Optimal Flat" allignment. Sorry Bruce, I think it works better for bass cabs. It is my opinion tht SBB4 seems to work better for recorded music reproduction and Hi-Fi type bass sound.

The only speakers that looks decent to me is the is the Eminence Deltalite 2510 and the B&C 10HPL51. Both have Neodymium magnets so they are very lightweight. Both like about 35-36 litres per speaker, Both are -3dB at 65Hzish but with 6 of them you should be able to produce enough lows to keep you happy.

The B&C is only 150w each but with 6 of them, that's a 900w speaker cab that's 215 litres in total (tuned to 58Hz). That's pretty compact for a 6x10. I've run it through WinIDS Pro and it looks like it's good for 430watts at 84Hz before hitting X-max (ie distortion). The Eminence makes an 1800watt speaker at 250 litres (tuned to 55Hz), but it's only good for 330watts at 82Hz before Xmax. The cab is a bit bigger but it's still smaller that you're typical 6x10. For reference, the SWR 6x10 is 350 litres. I tried making both boxes bigger in the hope of getting a lower -3dB point, but all I did was create issues with Group Delay and excursion. The speakers on the spreadsheet with loiwer -3dB points all look like sub type drivers with low sensitivity and poor response in the mid and high frequencies.

The Frequency response and Group delay graphs look remarkably similar for both speakers.

I'd also recommend fitting a horn for some high end snap and sizzle.

Where's Bgavin? He's much better at this than I am!

Confused? I'd say more on the order of comatose. But it raises a question a bit off the subject. I've been wondering what peoples opinions are of the tone of those Neodyne speakers. Epifani's sticking them in their ultralights and even won some awards for the 4x10 cab. So I assume they must be up to par with conventional materials.

 

[luknfur]

More along the lines of the subject, before I realized I was too stupid to build my own cab, surfing the web I ran across a some decent homebuilt cabs. One in particular was a dude that seemed pretty sharp and ended up using a car audio speaker (the use of which it seemed someone on this post alluded to previously) for a smaller, lightweight bass cab, kind of along the line of a Reazors Edge. Had a list of all materials, diagrams and construction - not for sale, just the info. The point being, if you haven't already done so, you might try the surf route and be lucky enough to locate something that would work for you. Although, it sounds like from previous posts, there's a lot more current published material out there for cab construction than say for onboard active electronics. A thought for what it's worth.

 

[Giraffe]

ESP-LTD hit it pretty well. I think before we all get wrapped around the axle in the dizzying array of good choices, I'd return to square one. What am I playing - a four string, a de-tuned four-string, or a five string? Players of de-tuned fours and fives should probably lean toward 12"s and 15's for the widest bottom. How much volume do you need? Two 12"s, four 10"s, even one good 15" can generate enough SPL for stage monitoring, and more than enough to damage your hearing. How much are you willing and able to carry, and how much room (on the bandstand, in your studio or vehicle, etc.) do you have? How much time do you have to research and build your own, and is it worth your while to do that when Eden, Bergantino, Epiphany have already done it, probably better than you can? I started doing this a long time ago, in the days when huge, innefficient cabs were all that was available. There's a new wind a-blowin'. and 1-15T's, 1- or 2-12T's, and 2- (that's right) and 4-10T's from any of the major manufacturers will satisfy most player's whims and needs. Get out and listen to a bunch of them, because they do sound a little different, and you are going to like some that another guy will not like. I strongly believe that if you are buying one or two sheets of marine grade plywood and speakers at retail, you will find that THE DIFFERENCE IN PRICE BETWEEN A CAB YOU BUILD AND A GOOD USED CAB IS MINIMAL. Seek out a good used Eden or even a new Aguilar or Bergantino 2-12, and devote your time to practising instead of glueing carpet! When you talk about equipment, tone is the most important feature, and there sure is a lot of great tone (as well as volume, portability, and reasonable cost) out there these. Forget the lessons you learned twenty years ago, technology has rendered them obsolete. Get a pair of 2-12's, or 2-10's, or 1-15's that sound good to you, and don't look back. Hump one to rehearsal, two to the gig, and remember that most of us who bi-amped in the 80's and 90's have found that mono does fine for most popular music.

 

[luknfur]

Some very interesting discussion happening in this thread.
Since I first posted this topic, I've been trying to gather as much information about speakers and cab building/wiring as possible.
But the hardest part is still choosing the right speaker at the right price. Sure I want to be able to custom build exactly what I want, but after looking at the prices of some drivers alone, it's easy to see that one could end up spending more than a prebuilt cabinet.
It's especially hard when you don't have access to the speakers to actually hear them, and end up going with its specs instead. That's when experienced people such as you come in. Many of you have tried different 15" drivers and know their good and bad points, versus their prices.

Is there an online speaker shop that carries a good variety of bass drivers? I could surely use some links if anyone has some.

Could someone please recommend certain brands and models of speakers to help me with a starting spot? That would be great if possible.
Also, I'm looking for a place that sells cabinet handles, corner protectors, casters, etc.. Perhaps someone could steer me to a good place to look.

Thanks again for the help...

Mag...

I should have kept up with this thread better. After going through the stack I had, I don't think anybody can tell you what speaker you'll like, even like speakers may not sound the same. It's easier to pick out the ones you don't like. Bear in mind that different rigging can alter the tone and some basses will sound best with a speaker another bass sounded the worst. And different enclosures will definetly alter the sound whether it's tuned differently or not. So some advantages of buying something already made.

But all the quality speaker manufacturers are worth a shot. For what it's worth, amps and cabs use more Eminence than the rest combined. Bergs, Epi's, and Aggie's use Eminence. And they're more reasonably priced given equal stats. But I bought all my speakers off ebay (credit card payment only), some new some not; using completed items, retail, and Jammin Jersey as a source for decent price. It's just not feasable to pay retail for comparison purposes. Jammin Jersey has new and used drivers from various manufacturers. But just punch in whatever you want for your cab in an online search and you'll get plenty of sellers. You might also check out a local speaker repair (a real human). Guy here in Charlotte has been a real help for testing speakers at no cost, helpful info, and reconed a Klipsch for a decent price.

 

[rumblinbass]

Thanks Petebass,

That's about what I was looking for. Still considering some options but you were a lot of help.

By the way, I went to download bgavins spreadsheet. It's pretty confusing - little help? I downloaded the Dosbox and the Perf456 files. I get pretty apprehensive about installing anything on my computer before I know what it's all about (not very computer savy).

 

[Petebass]

Thanks Petebass,

That's about what I was looking for. Still considering some options but you were a lot of help.

By the way, I went to download bgavins spreadsheet. It's pretty confusing - little help? I downloaded the Dosbox and the Perf456 files. I get pretty apprehensive about installing anything on my computer before I know what it's all about (not very computer savy).

The spreadsheet is called "Musicians reference.xls". I believe there's also a zipped version. Right click on the link and save it to disk. Then use Excel to open it as you would any other spreadsheet.

 

[rumblinbass]

HOLY $#!@


I HAD NO IDEA!!! THIS IS AMAZING!!!

oh, by the way it worked Petebass, thanks again. This will really help. I keep going back and forth with this cabinet building thing, but now I work with somebody who is getting me excited about it all over again.

Thanks again.

 

[Zentner]

I haven't had that much experience with Eminence either, but I consider their standard products kind of middle-of-the-road. However they custom make speakers for almost all the high end guys out there (Eden is the only one that makes their own). EA in particular has a reputation for excellent sounding cabinets - accurate and flat. So Eminence is capable of making some really good stuff.

As far as cost goes, don't do this project to save money. In the long run, you can expect to pay at least what a similar manufactured cab would.

Are you actually positive that most high-end bass cab manufacturers use eminence?

Bergentino?
Epifani?
Aguilar?

I'm very suprised to hear that, and now, myself am throwing around the idea of making my own cab. Perhaps a 1x12, or something like that.

By the way.. i'm almost Positive Bagend makes their own drivers. I'm not sure about availability, but i'm sure you can have a look!

www.bagend.com

 

[basstrader]

I guessmy comment was based on the famous 1x12 shootout that BP did a couple of years ago. they charted a bunch of specs including who manufactured the speaker, and IIRC, 8 of the 10 were Eminence custom drivers. If I think of it I'll check that issue and post again. I think Eden is the only one of the bunch that made their own drivers. but there's probably people that know better than me

cheers!

p.s. As far as cost goes, I maintain that you won't sve much money, but if you like to build things speakers are very interesting projects, fairly easy to do, and the satifaction of using something you designed and built has some intangible value too. Mostly I did it because I wanted something small, it didn't have to be loud, and I'm interested in doing things like that. It was fun.

 

[luknfur]

If the speaker code begins with 67, it's made by Eminence. My Aguilar GS-112s an Emi, a buddies Epi T-310s an Emi, and another buds Bergs an Emi. They may not all be, don't know. But Eminence is the worlds largest speaker manufacturer and somebody's buying them. But those speakers are in deed made to builders specifications, they are not the ones you'll get off the Eminence site (although I'd bet there are exceptions to that). But if for no other reason, a speaker has to have specfic parameters and design for the desired response as well as dimensions (in case of tight quarters) for a given enclosure/amp. You can't just throw any speaker into any enclosure and expect it to perform optimally - or even acceptably sometimes. That much I found out. Eden don't know but I think Ampeg may make their own.

But strings are the same way, there are only a handful of manufacturers in the U.S. that make strings. But there are hundreds of string brands it seems - even Martin for gods sake. But it's the same way, they are made to specs - although probably less common to do so in strings than in speakers. I'd guess that most strings are just stuck in a package with a different label.

Only makes sense, established manufacturers know their business. Why make it yourself when you can have it done for less with no headaches involved. If you do nothing else, you've got to make money to stay in business, a big part of which is cutting costs.

 

[Petebass]

Are you actually positive that most high-end bass cab manufacturers use eminence?

Bergentino?
Epifani?
Aguilar?

I'm very suprised to hear that, and now, myself am throwing around the idea of making my own cab. Perhaps a 1x12, or something like that.

By the way.. i'm almost Positive Bagend makes their own drivers. I'm not sure about availability, but i'm sure you can have a look!

www.bagend.com

Eminence runs it's business as 2 seperate enterprises. The first one we all know about, they sell speakers over the counter to whoever want's them. The second one is to make OEM speakers that are available only to the companies that comission them.

The only company I'm aware of that uses the over-the-counter eminence drivers is Avatar.

 

[luknfur]

And maybe someone has an answer for this. The Aggie GS 112 has a printed circuit board incorporated that to me is reminescent of onboard preamps in a bass (large manufacturer boards - you know the ones that only fit one model bass, not the after market stuff). And that cab sounds a lot like their OBP preamps, fat. So I'm guessing that's basically what's going on in there. I assume Epi's and Berg's are the same, and maybe Reazors Edge for that matter.

If that's the case, these boutique cabs aren't just speakers in some box which is fundamentally what we're trying to contstruct to compete with their sound, so to speak.

 

[bgavin]

By the way, I went to download bgavins spreadsheet. It's pretty confusing - little help? I downloaded the Dosbox and the Perf456 files. I get pretty apprehensive about installing anything on my computer before I know what it's all about (not very computer savy).

DOSbox is terribly old. I stopped doing database updates on it quite awhile ago. Like all DOS programs, it is totally non-invasive to a Windows system. It will run in a DOS box, but is untested on Win2000 or WinXP.

The spread sheet is standard Excel, no macros. I use a ton of formulas in it, so re-calculation might take a bit of time on a slow machine. The sheet is similar in function to logarithm tables: you have to know what you are looking for, to use it.

You can sort it by speaker size first, then SBB4 box volume, and finally SBB4 f3. This will show you how the various diameter speakers work in different box sizes. Note the really tasty ones to go down to 20 Hz in 0.5 cubic feet are always subwoofer types. Very inefficient, and not very loud. Pay attention to the SPL values, and how much wattage is required to get there.

Pay attention to drivers such as the Eminence Delta 10a, which is rated at 350 watts. This is the amount of power the voice coil will accept before meltdown. In SBB4, this driver will only accept 43 watts before the cone excursion exceeds the Xmax limits. This is typical of a cheap driver with limited cone excursion when used in the bass environment.

 

[Petebass]

And maybe someone has an answer for this. The Aggie GS 112 has a printed circuit board incorporated that to me is reminescent of onboard preamps in a bass (large manufacturer boards - you know the ones that only fit one model bass, not the after market stuff). And that cab sounds a lot like their OBP preamps, fat. So I'm guessing that's basically what's going on in there. I assume Epi's and Berg's are the same, and maybe Reazors Edge for that matter.

If that's the case, these boutique cabs aren't just speakers in some box which is fundamentally what we're trying to contstruct to compete with their sound, so to speak.

I have a feeling the circuit board you're refering to is the crossover. There could also be some passive shaping in there such as notch filters or attenuation networks. As far as I'm aware, any sort of preamp type tone shaping electronics would require a power source, meaning you'd have to run a power cable as well as a speaker cable. Some speaker manufacturers have processors that work magic on the speakers, but they're usually seperate rack devices that fit into the signal chain before the amplification stage. Bose comes to mind as an example (though it's really a set of Pre-determined EQ settings). Nexo is another example. The Yorkville PA I used last night had a processor as well.

As always, I could be wrong.

 

[luknfur]

I have a feeling the circuit board you're refering to is the crossover. There could also be some passive shaping in there such as notch filters or attenuation networks. As far as I'm aware, any sort of preamp type tone shaping electronics would require a power source, meaning you'd have to run a power cable as well as a speaker cable. Some speaker manufacturers have processors that work magic on the speakers, but they're usually seperate rack devices that fit into the signal chain before the amplification stage. Bose comes to mind as an example (though it's really a set of Pre-determined EQ settings). Nexo is another example. The Yorkville PA I used last night had a processor as well.

As always, I could be wrong.

Yeh, forgot about the power source. But I'd think that board has got to be more than a crossover. The tweeter that came in that cab in my opinion is virtually useless for bass guitar. Makes me wonder what that cab would sound like just run straight thru that speaker. It's been a while since I opened it up but I distinctly recall being suprised by the amount of electronics in that little cab. When building cabs my intent from the beginning was to use seperate cabs for stereo and eliminate the crossover. But after seeing inside the Aggie, another reason I became more motivated to build my own cab was to keep it simple and have something I could deal with myself when it fritz'd. Another reason I got the Aggie was to copy the design if I wasn't satisfied with the results of my own making............... Hmmm? Maybe my next cab project? It's been a while.

 

[bgavin]

Another reason I got the Aggie was to copy the design if I wasn't satisfied with the results of my own making.

It doesn't work that way.

To do it right, you would have to build a test setup to accurately determine the T/S parameters of the driver used in the Aggie. Once done, you could then understand how it was tuned and sized. After that, you would have to find the same driver as used by the Aggie. If it is an Eminence OEM, it is not available to the public.

It is much easier to compare your wants against known data (my spread sheet) and build from there. Some players want noise, others want small size, others require maximum low frequency extension.

I much prefer SBB4 alignments because they have much less mud, and are nearly always tuned lower than QB3 or Flat alignments. This helps provide maximum acoustic loading on the cone where it is most needed: at the lowest working frequencies.

 

[luknfur]

It doesn't work that way.

To do it right, you would have to build a test setup to accurately determine the T/S parameters of the driver used in the Aggie. Once done, you could then understand how it was tuned and sized. After that, you would have to find the same driver as used by the Aggie. If it is an Eminence OEM, it is not available to the public.

It is much easier to compare your wants against known data (my spread sheet) and build from there. Some players want noise, others want small size, others require maximum low frequency extension.

I much prefer SBB4 alignments because they have much less mud, and are nearly always tuned lower than QB3 or Flat alignments. This helps provide maximum acoustic loading on the cone where it is most needed: at the lowest working frequencies.

On the other hand, routing that J pup is probably more my speed.

 

[Petebass]

On the other hand, routing that J pup is probably more my speed.

You know what, making a bass cab sounds like a lot of work to most people. But one of the toughest DIY jobs I tackled was installing some Alembic J Pickups into a Essex Jazz copy. I'd rather build a speaker......

 

[Wayne Train]

Magneto, I've built a lot and bought a lot of bass and PA cabs. Size, weight, cost and sound quality are the biggest concerns you WILL have. You can indulge yourself with trying to build something that will ultimately come up short or just get what you really need. I suggest what I finally ended up with and still treasure to this day. For about $700 you can get a 2 or 3 year old used Ampeg SVT610HLF. It addresses all of your concerns and you will definately love it. I have two 421-8LF's I am building a cabinet for and I will post that on here when I get it finished. I use a Hatke 3500 head and a SansAmp BassDriver DI/preamp but the 610 will sound good with just about any amp. Hope this helps.