New 360/361 Owner - How to Mic?

[byacey]

The 450 & 470 were the only ACC amps designed by Ed Miller. Before Acoustic he was an engineer for Scientific Audio Electronics (S.A.E.), and after leaving Acoustic he co-founded Great American Sound Company (GAS). That's a huge pedigree.

I've always thought of the 450 and 470 as Acoustic's warmest sounding amps. As Steadfast says, different animal entirely from their other amps by Russ and Duke.

Yeas ago I was comparing schematics, and if I recall correctly, the power amp sections were very similar.

 

[Steadfast]

I didn't have the patience or grit to read more than 6 or 7 pages of that thread about the Acoustic (USA) By-God-Made-In-America 360/361 -- does anyone know how many units were produced, and for how long? And what did they ultimately sell for new? All I saw in the portion of the thread I read was some dopey speculation about $7K...I feel relatively certain that it did not sell for that when it was available in a normal retail channel. Anyone?

they sold new for $5,400. I got mine mint for $2k and was on the fence about paying that much. I am soooooo glad I bought it.

 

[bobyoung53]

Riddle me this...


-how was this mic'd @ Madison Sq Garden?

that's the tone, that's what I want!

Sounds like DI to me.

 

[bobyoung53]

The SVT is successful for many reasons besides its sound. What it wasn't was a natural evolution to a louder B-15. Like the Apple II it benefited from product placement not superior performance.

I run an SVT head through one or two 4 ohm B-15T cabs in smaller rooms on occasion and the set up sounds just like a loud clear B-15 so I think it's much more the SVT cab coloring the sound than the head. The heads sound a lot more 'open' in ported cabs.

 

[bobyoung53]

Was the SVT just the beginning of a trend toward smaller high watt handling 4x10s? The inclusion of ports and flexible surrounds allowed for wider frequency presentation.

I don't remember Ampeg making a 410 cab for at least 10 or 15 years after they came out with the SVT, I would guess sometime in the late 80's- early 90's but I'm only going by what I remember.

 

[bobyoung53]

Back on topic, I have only played through a 361 once in my life and I didn't like it as it didn't have a lot of bottom up close. I did use a couple of 15" JBL bottoms though which were vaguely horn loaded and were about the size of a 361 bottom, they also threw the sound for some months. I never liked cabs like that, I like the immediate punch you get out of sealed or ported cabs although they don't fill up the room as much.
Now to contradict myself I just bought a 70's Ampeg V4-B cab which is a W cab with two 15"s. I haven't tried it yet but do remember liking those.

 

[JacklegBass]

Yeas ago I was comparing schematics, and if I recall correctly, the power amp sections were very similar.

I haven't studied them like that but IIRC the 450/470 amps put out roughly constant power over different load impedances which wasn't the case for other models. Not sure where that was made to happen, but Russ once told me the magic in those particular amps was in the power supply and the designed-in sag.

To bring it back sort of on topic, I guess I'd say IMHO the warmer 450/470 sounded more like the 360/361 than any of their other amps. YMMV

 

[JMacBass65]

FLATS! I knew it! I never believed he used roundwounds exclusively.

I've been running dead strings and the tone knob rolled off to like, 75% for years and have got pretty close.

'The Lemon Song' tone and TSRTS are my holy grail.

Yes, flat wounds (and pick in some instances). I would bet a large sum of money that during his Zep years his jazz never saw rounds. He did use rounds on his 51 P bass, as well as his Alembic amd BecVar.

Whether it was a well thought out design, accident or a screw up .... the acoustic 360/361 stands as a giant in classic bass sound and not even the newest tech equipment can replace it.

Exactly. Another post mentioned the design as a compromise. Well.......EVERY design of anything involves compromise, so yeah.

All good - doesn't bother me. I'm just over here trying to crack the JPJ tone code!

You are well on your way with a jazz and flats. And of course, the amp now. Watch some old videos of him, note his right hand technique/placement, which varies. And lastly, and very important, photos indicate he also occasionally rolled off the bridge pickup volume a bit.

And congrats on the amp. As a Jones nut myself, I have wanted one for some time. Passed on one for a decent price a few years back as I had young kids and a forced career change, so it seemed irresponsible. About to be an empty nester come August, so maybe I'll start looking for one again.

 

[chadds]

I don't remember Ampeg making a 410 cab for at least 10 or 15 years after they came out with the SVT, I would guess sometime in the late 80's- early 90's but I'm only going by what I remember.

I am saying the 8x10 began the trend of 4x10s. Ampeg followed the 4x10s by the others. Guild/Hartke, SWR.

 

[chadds]

Back on topic, I have only played through a 361 once in my life and I didn't like it as it didn't have a lot of bottom up close. I did use a couple of 15" JBL bottoms though which were vaguely horn loaded and were about the size of a 361 bottom, they also threw the sound for some months. I never liked cabs like that, I like the immediate punch you get out of sealed or ported cabs although they don't fill up the room as much.
Now to contradict myself I just bought a 70's Ampeg V4-B cab which is a W cab with two 15"s. I haven't tried it yet but do remember liking those.

That 360/361 would drown out two Marshalls and two drummers if you turned it to 8. Yep experience. After selling my 360/361 I bought a flatback SVT powered it by a Marshall Major set it next to a V4B with a Sunn 2000s and a Leslie 147. Those were the days!

 

[bobyoung53]

That 360/361 would drown out two Marshalls and two drummers if you turned it to 8. Yep experience. After selling my 360/361 I bought a flatback SVT powered it by a Marshall Major set it next to a V4B with a Sunn 2000s and a Leslie 147. Those were the days!

Funny, i just bought another Marshall Major, can't wait to get back and try it. I used my first Major with two Sunn 2000S cabs.

 

[bobyoung53]

Yes, flat wounds (and pick in some instances). I would bet a large sum of money that during his Zep years his jazz never saw rounds. He did use rounds on his 51 P bass, as well as his Alembic amd BecVar.



Exactly. Another post mentioned the design as a compromise. Well.......EVERY design of anything involves compromise, so yeah.



You are well on your way with a jazz and flats. And of course, the amp now. Watch some old videos of him, note his right hand technique/placement, which varies. And lastly, and very important, photos indicate he also occasionally rolled off the bridge pickup volume a bit.

And congrats on the amp. As a Jones nut myself, I have wanted one for some time. Passed on one for a decent price a few years back as I had young kids and a forced career change, so it seemed irresponsible. About to be an empty nester come August, so maybe I'll start looking for one again.

I always thought a lot of JPJ's early stuff sounded like flats too but he insisted he never used them in a (I think) old Bassplayer interview. I saw them when I was a kid but don't remember the sound. I do know they or at least Jimmy Page was using Rickenbacker Transonic amps when I saw them though. He has said he hadn't used flats since his session days with a P bass, early Zep does sound like flats that.

 

[chadds]

Funny, i just bought another Marshall Major, can't wait to get back and try it.

Oooooo!
On that flatback it was a chord monster. Since I was a youngin I didn't know to have it tuned up.
I originally paid $825 new for my 360/361. My preference for front loaded cabs was not apparent at the time. I should have plugged a then contemporary Marshall 50w 1935A (bass cab) or 1960A (guitar cab) into the high output. Then I would have had benefits of both. Yes 360s were warm unlike SS traditionally at the time.

The Major on a Marshall 4x12 1982B (the 100 watt cab) was full range and loud and excellent. It wasn't fuzzy and distorted like Jack Bruce.

There is no comparison between the 360/361 and the 370. The 360/361 had all kinds of warmth.

Actually a Sunn 2000s was perfect. With two cabs, heaven. Capable of pure hifi clear bass tone. Front loaded. Tech designed cabs. The most hi tech speakers available at the time. Huge volume onstage and out front. True pants flappers and vision blurrers.

Back on topic the 360/361 was killing the stoned hippies on the back wall while you cranked it to be heard onstage. Not conjecture, experience.

 

[bobyoung53]

Oooooo!
On that flatback it was a chord monster. Since I was a youngin I didn't know to have it tuned up.
I originally paid $825 new for my 360/361. My preference for front loaded cabs was not apparent at the time. I should have plugged a then contemporary Marshall 50w 1935A (bass cab) or 1960A (guitar cab) into the high output. Then I would have had benefits of both. Yes 360s were warm unlike SS traditionally at the time.

The Major on a Marshall 4x12 1982B (the 100 watt cab) was full range and loud and excellent. It wasn't fuzzy and distorted like Jack Bruce.

There is no comparison between the 360/361 and the 370. The 360/361 had all kinds of warmth.

Actually a Sunn 2000s was perfect. With two cabs, heaven. Capable of pure hifi clear bass tone. Front loaded. Tech designed cabs. The most hi tech speakers available at the time. Huge volume onstage and out front. True pants flappers and vision blurrers.

Back on topic the 360/361 was killing the stoned hippies on the back wall while you cranked it to be heard onstage. Not conjecture, experience.

I added this after you posted but I used to use two 2000S cabs with the Marshall and yes it was a pants flapper. Room earthquaker too. One place we played used to call us The Big Wind.

 

[Spupilup]

[QUOTE="chadds, post: 25293065, member: 827:]There is no comparison between the 360/361 and the 370. The 360/361 had all kinds of warmth.[/QUOTE]

I had a 360/361 for a couple of years back in the mid '70's and traded it with a few bucks for a 371 and always regretted it. I was young, impulsive and was starting to play more punk so it kinda made sense to me at the time. It did t matter much because the 371 was destroyed in a fire less than six months after I made the trade.

For me, the 360/361 will always hold a special place in my heart.

 

[JimmyM]

Congrats on the nice score! RE-20 is great. Move the mic around till it sounds good to you. Use your ears to find that spot. Don't be afraid to back it up from the grill, too, if that's a good spot. Hit the Record button. If it sucks, move it again. And again. And again. When you find the best spot, remember it.

Simple.

 

[PhR75]

About Jonesy's and Jaco's sound:
I've never played the 360/361 combination but I recently bought Dr. Bonkers Acoustic 301 IR pack to use with the Nux Solid Studio pedal.
While I'm still working out all the options and mixes and stuff I have to say that all the IR variations it has sounded good to me and had "that" sound I've learned to recognize from albums. For example, Chris Glen from Sensational Alex Harvey Band used a 370 w/301 cabs with a '51 P bass (or Tele) in the mid seventies and the basssound on their "Live" album (1975) has that same kind of vibe that JPJ has on for example "Black Dog" or "Out On The Tiles".
I recorded this short zeppelinisque romp using an IR that has the 301 captured with an RE-20 in the reflex port. A Tele with rounds and a pick. Not saying it is the sound but it has that same vibe.
I also played this Jaco-ish thing using another IR from the same pack (had more mics) and again the sound is more there than just playing through a DI.

 

[tvbop]

Back on topic the 360/361 was killing the stoned hippies on the back wall while you cranked it to be heard onstage

Haha ..used an Orange 2x15 parabolic bin back in 78/79....back of club would look like a demolition site after the gig, I spent the entire gig unable to hear hardly any bass at all...different times.

 

[byacey]

Oooooo!
Back on topic the 360/361 was killing the stoned hippies on the back wall while you cranked it to be heard onstage. Not conjecture, experience.

I wonder if it isn't because the cabinet was mid-deficient, so the bassist was subconsciously (or maybe consciously) cranking it louder trying to hear some definition to their tone. At the same time, the low frequency becomes way out of control. Being horn loaded, they will have quite a rolloff in response above the horn cutoff frequency.

 

[StereoPlayer]

I wonder if it isn't because the cabinet was mid-deficient, so the bassist was subconsciously (or maybe consciously) cranking it louder trying to hear some definition to their tone. At the same time, the low frequency becomes way out of control. Being horn loaded, they will have quite a rolloff in response above the horn cutoff frequency.