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New lt weight amps vs old heavies

grooveway

grooveway

Dec 2, 2007
58
15
Southeast Indiana
www.dallasmoore.com
#1
It's been 15 years or so, time to update the rig. A big item is to reduce weight. Current setup is a Trace pre-amp through a 20 year old Crest FA800 through some Boogie cabinets. Love the tone and has a killer punch. Usually don't run through a PA, we're old school here. The 800 is great because although I rarely run more than 5 on the pre-amp, it gives me wondeful headroom.

So, picked up a pair of Epifani UL112's. Can't say enough good about these. Beats carrying the Boogies.

Next is a lighter bass head (thinking Epifani PS600 or Iamp 800) or a lighter power amp.

Have seen some 15 pound power amps out there rated around 800 to 1000+ watts. My old school understanding of amps is similar to hot rods... there's no substitute for cubic inches (or heavy transformers).

So, very interested in some input. Will I notice a negative difference in a lighter amp? i.e. a Crown Xti series?

Please forgive me if this has been covered. Didn't see the search button for the posts.

Thanks
 
#2
grooveway said:
Have seen some 15 pound power amps out there rated around 800 to 1000+ watts. My old school understanding of amps is similar to hot rods... there's no substitute for cubic inches (or heavy transformers).
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I would agree if you said "there's no substitute for WATTS"

BUT some of the switching amps I've heard seem weak when it comes to a weighty sound. I don't think you need a 40Lbs poweramp or 100Lbs tube amp to have a great sound.

The amps I've tended to like are MOSFET poweramps or mosfet with tube pre's like the eden Wt550 or wt800. if you want to be impressed try out the Eden WT800c. its only 26 Lbs, but will kick many many amps butts. IMO :bassist:

BTW I'm jealous about your UL112 purchase...
 
#3
There's gonna be lots of subjective opinion, but as an engineer, I had no issues, nor have I had any with my conventional AB Yamaha P7000S with a SMPS: 700W/8R/ch, 12kg.

I would have no hesitation buying a well engineeered amps with an SMPS, though readily admit I prefer to use linear supplies with the gear I build (mainly for warranty issues on self build projects). I've used lots or PWM (class D) amplifier modules with good results.
 
#5
Mcrelly said:
I would agree if you said "there's no substitute for WATTS"

BUT some of the switching amps I've heard seem weak when it comes to a weighty sound. I don't think you need a 40Lbs poweramp or 100Lbs tube amp to have a great sound.

The amps I've tended to like are MOSFET poweramps or mosfet with tube pre's like the eden Wt550 or wt800. if you want to be impressed try out the Eden WT800c. its only 26 Lbs, but will kick many many amps butts. IMO :bassist:

BTW I'm jealous about your UL112 purchase...
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You actually should have agreed with him is he said "There's no substitute for current"

Current, measured in amperes peak to peak is what drives your speakers. We're talking about an AMPlifier here, not a wattifier. While these high wattage amps may produce a lot of voltage potential multiplied by a small amount of current to get these large wattage ratings, it's because they don't supply as much current as an old SVT to have the kind of throw weight that good bass reproduction needs. What makes your car move? Horsepower or torque?

I don't have a problem with these paperback book sized amps (I like the Mark Bass and new Genz Benz amps) but I don't expect them to sound like my trusty yet heavy SWR SM-400.
 
#6
There are many heads under 20 pounds that match up just beautifully with the 112UL's.

If you are looking for a touch of old school... fat, somewhat warm, a little bit of 'suggestion of tube' tone, the Aguilar500 (SC or dual channel), the EdenWT550, or the Thunderfunk550A (you wouldn't need the power of the 750 with just those two 112s) would sound great. Also, the Markbass LMII kills with those cabs (and is about 6 pounds). All of the above are warm, fat, and put out about the same power and volume (500 watts or so into 4ohms). The Genz Benz 6.0 seems very cool also, and is very small and light, with a tube pre.

I never found the iAmp's to match up well with the Epi's... a little to 'clean, hi fi and sterile' for me. If you are looking to go that route, the Epifani heads (P600 which is being discontinues) or the 502, or the Markbass F1 sound great to me with those cabs.. quick, clean, tight, crisp.

The GK stuff is nice also, and that 1001 sounds great and is punchy and growly also.

If you really want the tube grind and fat tone in a smaller amp, the Mesa stuff (Walkabout, the new Fathom, the 600, etc.) is amazing sounding into 4ohms.

Lot's of nice stuff.


Regarding the above post of the SWR400... I used to own one of those, and all of the above heads will put out more volume and punch than that head... things have actually gotten MUCH better in 20 years:smug:

Edit: The new TF750a might be the closest match to your current trace/power amp set-up... mid punchy, warm and tight, not necessarily modern or hi fi sounding. Actually, the TF550b (there are a few of these coming up used) would probably be plenty with those two cabs.... 550 watts into 4ohms, about 17 pounds. I believe Dave is selling the final run of 550b's at a discount prior to switching over 100% to the 750's.
 
#7
Just a couple thoughts: First, the amount of current that can be delivered to a speaker at a given voltage is not determined by the amp, but by the electromechanics of the speaker. And the speaker impedance is the same no matter what amp you drive it with.

Second, "car" analogies can only go so far when you are talking about completely different technologies. My car engine weighs less than a horse, yet it can do the work of a couple dozen horses on a good day.

My guess is that whatever "tone" one is getting from a solid state amp is coming from the preamp. That's not absolute, but it seems like the most likely situation given how power amps are designed. In any event, power amp overdrive effects don't occur unless you are overdriving the power amp.
 
#9
fdeck said:
Just a couple thoughts: First, the amount of current that can be delivered to a speaker at a given voltage is not determined by the amp, but by the electromechanics of the speaker. And the speaker impedance is the same no matter what amp you drive it with.
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Nope. Speaker impedance is dynamic based on frequency. An 8-ohm speaker can have an impedance as low as .5 Ohm to as high as 25 Ohm. 8 is its nominal (average, at rest) impedance. With really low impedances you need more current available.
 
#13
onlyclave said:
Nope. Speaker impedance is dynamic based on frequency. An 8-ohm speaker can have an impedance as low as .5 Ohm to as high as 25 Ohm. 8 is its nominal (average, at rest) impedance. With really low impedances you need more current available.
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Um, maybe you mean 5Ω instead of 0.5?
 
#15
Bob Lee (QSC) said:
Yes, that's why I was surprised that you use an incorrect and misleading term.
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See first part of earlier response. It differentiates between mains freq and SMPS/PWM type supplies and dates from when non-mains freq supplies were very uncommon.
I start back at school next week (as the resident old fart in the class) so I fully expect rapped knuckles over similar shorthands.
 
#16
A9X said:
It differentiates between mains freq and SMPS/PWM type supplies and dates from when non-mains freq supplies were very uncommon.
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It's an incorrect differentiation that promotes misunderstanding, though. I once spent time on the phone talking to a guy who was scoping the neutral current on a three-phase power system for a concert sound system (he'd been trying to trace the source of a buzz in the system). He couldn't understand why he was geting 360 current spikes per second from "linear" power supplies. I had a hard time getting him to understand that what he thought were "linear" supplies are actually anything but linear. I don't think that he really got it, though; such myths are often hard to dislodge.

Both conventional (mains frequency) and switch-mode supplies are non-linear, as they both use peak rectification.
 
#17
Bob Lee (QSC) said:
It's an incorrect differentiation that promotes misunderstanding, though. ...... I don't think that he really got it, though; such myths are often hard to dislodge.
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Just to keep you content Bob, I hereby vow to use the technically correct terminology for rectified mains frequency non-linear power supplies, hereafter known as REMFNOLIPS.
 
#19
A9X said:
Just to keep you content Bob, I hereby vow to use the technically correct terminology for rectified mains frequency non-linear power supplies, hereafter known as REMFNOLIPS.
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HaHaHa - that's good! :)

But if you add a regulator - can you then call them "Linear" ? Assuming the regulator is doing the class-a thing and it's the last thing in the chain.

I'll just call them linear power supplies cause that's what get the most hits on google.
 

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