Double Bass New pup... Need new amp and pre too?

[EasilySpooked]

Hello!
I've been happily using a Krivo mag pup through an Aguilar Tone Hammer into a Hartke head for years, gave my steel string upright a deep growl that I loved. Been a great rig.
I recently changed strings and a lot of the growl left, but I love the acoustic tone, so I'm giving thought to changing from a mag pup to a piezo, which I have no experience with.
Question is, if I want a warmer, more acoustic sound, do you think I'll need to change out my preamp and amp as well as the pup? How far into that realm will the pup change alone take me?
My goal isn't necessarily a pure acoustic tone, just something closer to it than I've been getting.
Please and thank you!

 

[Sean Riddle]

Try out a Realist first off. I’ve seen a lot of people using the Tonehammer these past few years. Preamp wise it all depends on what you think of the sound.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The Realist would be the pickup that I won’t recommend at all. Better stay away from it.
If you want a bridge foot pickup better get a Shadow SH-965NFX which uses piezo foil and has an impedance buffer build in. Just plug in the instrument cable when you play only and disconnect it if not playing for more than a few minutes to save battery and carry a few CR2032 batteries with you.
Attack might be a bit softer than pickups mounted higher at the bridge but you get a nice bowed tone. You can also use one or two foils, whatever sounds better to you.

If you use any passive piezo (like the Underwood, Full Circle, Yamahiko, REV Solo, Realist, Lifeline) you may need a high impedance (5 to 10 MegOhms) preamp. No need to change your Tonehammer as far as I know.

Hartke is not recommended for DB, but I once played with the Shadow NFX through a Hartke Stack and it gave me some of the attack back that the NFX is usually missing a bit. So you might try the Hartke first. But might be too aggressive for the other pickups (except the Realists, but I would always prefer the NFX over any Realist).

 

[DaveAceofBass]

I’d recommend the Full Circle or Yamahiko

 

[Don Hergert]

Can you tell us more about the style of playing, the genre and the type of venues that you typically play, and the price range that you're considering?

This makes a big difference in what piezo pickups you're in the market for, as there is a world of choices that you can make. There is a large variety of specialized piezo and multi-piezo sets made for various reasons. And along the same line, some of these piezo and multi-piezo sets work well with no or whatever pre-amp, and some of them require special devices.

 

[jthisdell]

I usually use a Radial pre with my piezo equipped EUB but have occasionally run direct into my Tonehammer with surprisingly good results. Not sure what the impedance of the TH input is but it must be pretty high, maybe 4-5megohm.

 

[unbrokenchain]

Can you tell us more about the style of playing, the genre and the type of venues that you typically play

This. It's funny how the Realist seems like about the most polarizing piece of gear on the DB side But I find that amplified arco with the copper Realist is worlds better than anything else I've tried (short of a microphone). If you're doing mostly pizz, I'd echo the Fishman suggestion.

 

[Earl]

I usually use a Radial pre with my piezo equipped EUB but have occasionally run direct into my Tonehammer with surprisingly good results. Not sure what the impedance of the TH input is but it must be pretty high, maybe 4-5megohm.

The Tonehammer is 1 megaohm I believe.

 

[Ric Vice]

I think the Realist has it’s place provided the volumes you’re playing at don’t get very loud. Playing Arco the Realist really does sound warmer than a Full Circle. That said for pizzicato the Yamahiko or Full Circle definitely have a better attack, decay and release. What I don’t like about them is their tone quality on the sustain, but that can be dealt with using proper input impedance and EQ,
especially in live performances the instrument mixes and blends with the ensemble.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

It might be due to personal taste of DB sound. Personally I like some mids to hear my intonation but also because I think this is part of the sound character of the instrument. I would not cut highs on my pickups, but mostly don‘t boost them either.

When I play on other players instruments (i.e. at jam sessions) I often dislike the dialed-in sound as too dark. Often the bass frequencies are not cut and high mids are cut instead. That‘s a different taste than mine. Maybe it came historically from dealing with piezo quack to cut high mids to get rid of it, but that might also be a result of connecting a piezo to a rather low input impedance.

When I was a lot younger I boosted the bass too, it took me a while to understand that the bass frequencies are already too much present in a bridge pickup signal because the acoustic sound doesn‘t have that high volume of low frequencies due to the radiation of the top that is too small for optimum radiation of these low frequencies.

And the next thing is that our hearing has a limited dynamic range for low frequencies (also a bit less for very high frequencies, google for fletcher-Munson curves to see that), so they shouldn‘t get boosted beyond and finally the room that dampens low frequencies less good than higher ones which may lead to high resonance that hardly wents away and puts a sheet of mud into the music.

So the EQ at home at living room compatible levels won‘t work on stage. And the EQ settings on stage depend on the volume level (which includes FOH volume levels which also depend EQ-wise on the volume of the bass).

 

[Ric Vice]

Double Midi
Those are very astute observations along with great information. What I've found with piezo pickups is that when you let the note sustain and compare it to the bass alone, there is noticable difference in

tone quality between the two. To compensated for this I'll carefully boost the EQ in the low midrange to compensate for this noticable harshness. If for example I was using the 5 Band EQ on the Headway EDB-2

I typically set all the bands flat to start, but generally I'll move the bass up just a little, set the low mids between 6 and 7, lower the upper mids to somewhere between 3 and 4, leave the presence at 5, and drop

the treble somewhere under 5. Of course this is not where things always end up. Often I have to back the bass control down to 4 or less. Just what works for me. I just do not like the upper midrange to stand out.

 

[jthisdell]

The Tonehammer is 1 megaohm I believe.

That's what I thought but like I said, when I have forgotten my Radial and gone direct it sounded pretty dang good.

 

[EasilySpooked]

Thank you all very kindly, it's Really helpful to see this conversation splay out, and I hadn't heard of the Yamahiko before.
I mostly play large spaces with small to moderate crowds, the open barn style brewhouses that are popular in New England right now. Frequently we are outdoors. The music is high energy americana, bluegrass, dixie jazz, and country. For example, a little live basement cut from last year:
The reason for my string change is a newfound dedication to playing Arco, not something I really mucked with until a year ago with any regularity. That spawned a change from Helicore Pizz to Helicore Orchestral strings, which have a totally different attack and a darker tone.
It is definitely interesting to see the split over the Realist, and I'm also surprised not to see a K&K mentioned, my mandolin player loves his, but am I reading into it right that the bass max misses the mark for you all? Is there a good resale market for pups? How did you all go about the grand experiment without racking up piles of gear you don't love the tone of?
$200 is an ideal cost for me, but $300 is probably doable.
Again, thank you all so much for sharing your experience and wisdom.

 

[Wasnex]

This. It's funny how the Realist seems like about the most polarizing piece of gear on the DB side But I find that amplified arco with the copper Realist is worlds better than anything else I've tried (short of a microphone). If you're doing mostly pizz, I'd echo the Fishman suggestion.

I used one of the original Realist on several basses and was satisfied with the results. The current Copperhead is supposed to be an improvement on the original design.

My playing was about 50/50 pizz/arco and the Realist is generally considered a very good crossover pickup because it bows pretty well. It can be a bit looser sounding than other pickups because it is mounted directly on the bass's body. Whether this is good or bad depends on the bass. If you have relatively tight sounding bass, the Realist may be a good choice.

The last bass I had the Realist on was a 7/8 Lakeburg Baer that was extremely resonant due to very thin body panels and ribs. IMHO basses that are loud and extremely resonant acoustically are not IMHO ideal candidates for amplification to begin with, and the Realist was probably not the best choice as it picked up way to much of the body. But I never had any trouble getting stupid loud. The sound was just a bit too woolly for my taste. Then again, that's pretty much how the bass sounded acoustically as well.

I ran a 250W stereo power amp and had my choice of an Eden D210XLT or D410XLT. I usually just ran the 210, but I could run both speakers without problems. I usually stacked the speakers on top of their flight cases to minimize interaction between the speakers and the bass. Also I used an Ashley MX508 Rackmixer for my preamp, which has a parametric mid range control, which can be really useful in dialing out undesirable resonance and mitigating feedback problems. A couple more bands of parametric EQ would have been ideal, but I made due with what I had. If I was using the same rig today, I would probably add an Empress ParaEQ. For anyone who is interested, I used Shure A95U line matching transformers, so I could plug my instruments into the mic inputs on the mixer.

The Realist was the last pickup I used professionally. One of my peers went through an AMT mic, a Realist Sound Clip, and eventually settled on the Ehrlund EAP.

He used a Solstice Blender preamp to mix the AMT with the Realist he inherited from me & this was on the Lakeburg Baer. He might of tried some other pickups and preamps as well, perhaps a K&K. I though the AMT sounded great when he played by himself, but it was useless for ensemble work due to excessive bleed from the drums.

The Realist Sound Clip is the worst sounding pickup I have ever hear. I have been able to EQ every other pickup to at least be usable, but not the Sound Clip. We bought a Fishman Pro EQ and wasted a few days moving the pickup around, but nothing worked .

The Ehrlund is the best sounding pickup I have ever heard. But it is sensitive to placement and a bad choice if you have a crappy sounding instrument. I was told my friend and another buddy of his spent a few hours with a stethoscope to find the best placement for the Ehrlund. After that, it sounded very close to a mic but had very good isolation and resistance to feedback. He initially use the Ehrlund with the Fishman Pro EQ and it sounded very good. He later bought the matching Ehrlund EAP preamp and it sounded even better.

These experiences occurred over a couple of years in two different countries on different upright basses. Only the people were the same .

 

[unbrokenchain]

It is definitely interesting to see the split over the Realist, and I'm also surprised not to see a K&K mentioned, my mandolin player loves his, but am I reading into it right that the bass max misses the mark for you all? Is there a good resale market for pups?

My experience with the Realist (currently have two on different basses) is that I'm not completely satisfied with the pizz sound of my Kay with just pickup, but it's "good enough" for me through my amp for most gigs, and when I want a more fine sound for a listening room or theater, the mic comes out. EQ is flat, everything at noon, though I roll off the bass frequencies in a boomy room. I don't change anything when I pull the bow out, which is significant as far as I'm concerned and the reason I'm not looking for a new pickup. The Kay is a dark bass though, on my bright-sounding carved bass I'm actually quite satisfied with the pizz tone of the Realist.

My experience with the Bassmax (have had two of these as well, one was used on four different basses) is that it has a very hot signal with a lot of "boing" that can work well if you're just doing pizz and want more of a sine wave than a nuanced tone (for classic country and old time I thought it worked just fine). I was always messing with EQ trying to get it right though, and I needed totally different EQ and gain settings when using it for arco. If I didn't roll the highs off almost completely, it had the lovely tone of ripping paper...

All of my pickups have been purchased used. They've all been fine. But supposedly there's a life expectancy for piezos in general, and at some point I'd like to buy the same products new and see how they compare.

 

[lurk]

The Gage Lifeline is a nice compromise between the Realist and Fishman. Not as muddy as the Realist, bows better than the Fish. Not as acoustic like attack decay character as the Realist, but better than the Fishman. Not as honky mids as the Fish, but a little less clarity. Better in loud situations than Real, but doesn't cut through as much as the Fish. I've had both Realist and Fishman and prefer the Lifeline.

 

[bigshiny]

Ok , I’ll be that guy. Been using the K&K RAB system since it came out in about 1999.
On both my 1937 Kay and my aluminum Pfretzschner. Pizz and slap only. All plain gut. Saying this , I do not think this would be a good pickup for arco. Knowing that the OP is heading that direction. There are some very good recommendations in this thread. Just my .02

 

[Ric Vice]

................. One of my peers went through an AMT mic, a Realist Sound Clip, and eventually settled on the Ehrlund EAP.



.................The Ehrlund is the best sounding pickup I have ever heard. But it is sensitive to placement and a bad choice if you have a crappy sounding instrument. I was told my friend and another buddy of his spent a few hours with a stethoscope to find the best placement for the Ehrlund. After that, it sounded very close to a mic but had very good isolation and resistance to feedback. He initially use the Ehrlund with the Fishman Pro EQ and it sounded very good. He later bought the matching Ehrlund EAP preamp and it sounded even better.

These experiences occurred over a couple of years in two different countries on different upright basses. Only the people were the same .

I think it kinda boils down to the "right pickup for the style of music you play" If you need the edge of something like a KK RAB for a laminate Kay

then it's the perfect pickup for you. I played a plywood Gotz when I was a kid in highschool and loved that bass. The Gotz had narrow sloping shoulders

just like the Mirecourt bass I've had for over 30 years. On that bass, the Ehrlund EAP works so that's what I use. Actually, the Realist didn't work as

well as I hoped when I got it in 1989 but you could play with a bow and not have to dial in a totally different EQ, like you did with the Underwood.

The Ehrlund for a lot of players doesn't have the volume they require or the front edge to the note. It's a pickup that has a similar sound to a microphone.

When it works it works great. I'm really lucky it does that on my particular bass.

 

[Wasnex]

I think it kinda boils down to the "right pickup for the style of music you play"

Agreed although the bass is also a huge factor. I thought the Realist worked pretty well for pizz on some instruments but not so well for others. I kept it because it worked well for bowing, and that was a significant and important part of my job. I was always able to get acceptable results with pizz, otherwise I would have found something else. Previously I used a Fishman BP100, and I thought the Realistic was more authentic and true to the bass, but not necessarily better for everything. The Fishman was probably slightly better for pizz, but required a lot more EQ.

I didn't ever perform with the Ehrlund personally. I played it a bit, and mixed the person who bought it on tour. I thought it sounded fabulous for bowed and pizz work, and he did not have any problems getting loud enough. Normally I believe he used an Acoustic Image head and an EA NL210 speaker and he could kick a big band just fine with plenty of headroom.

I think the key with Ehrlund is to start with a nice sounding bass and then make sure you find the right placement on the bass's body to mount the pickup. The only minor problem I remember is the cable was a bit microphonic, and I believe this has been improved on later models. Of course the same rules apply, the music you play and the bass are important factors that determine whether the Ehrlund is a good choice or not. It's not going to work well for everyone, but I think a lot of times the problem will come down to operator error associated with proper placement and mounting. I think this pickup probably requires a bit more experimentation, as well as trial and error for optimum performance.

 

[EasilySpooked]

Thank you all so much, this has been incredibly helpful. I see now that I will get closer to the sound in my head by swapping the pup and do not need to add the expense of a new pre and amp at this time, but that I must be willing to spend the time to work my EQ both alone and with my band to see that dream tone through.