NEW: ZOOM B2 FOUR...

[stubbsonic]

Do you experience any latency when you use the B2 Four's Pitch Shift to transpose up or down a semitone? (Latency is a perceptible delay between when you pluck/pick a note, and when you hear the note.)

The different pitch shifter modules have different latency, but I'll mess with them more and give you a definitive answer about the tradeoffs with sound quality versus latency. Busy for next two days, but will try to test & respond soon.

 

[Appogee]

Many thanks, Stubbsonic and Topper, I really appreciate your taking the time to check this out for me.

 

[topper]

Many thanks, Stubbsonic and Topper, I really appreciate your taking the time to check this out for me.

Ok, I'm not entirely sure what to tell you here. First, I'm not a fan of using a pitch shifter. Like I said earlier, I would always opt for moving my left hand position instead.

But... the pitch shifters in the B2 Four aren't bad. There's more than one. There's a pitch shifter, a mono pitch shifter, a harmony shifter, and a polyphonic shifter.

They work surprisingly well. For the most part, I wouldn't say I encountered anything like latency during normal play. I did hear what I would describe as a light chorus or flanger even though there wasn't one in the signal chain. Each pitch shifter has a control called "fine." Dialing that up reduced, but never eliminated, this flanger sort of effect.

When it came to playing something with A LOT of attack, like slapping, I did perceive something you might describe as latency. But it was more like the attack I expected just wasn't there. It wasn't like the attack came a few milliseconds late, like true latency. Just that the attack was gone. The "fine" control helped a little. And with the mono shifter and the fine control cranked, I could almost imagine using the sound if there was no other way to play a song.

The mono shifter performed a lot better than I expected. It even handled some simple two-note chords, bends and other articulations.

In no cases did it ever sound or feel exactly like my normal tone, just pitch corrected. The shifters always colored the sound somewhat.

I hope that helps.

 

[Appogee]

Really helpful, thanks Topper!

 

[lildrgn]

I'd appreciate if a Zoom B2 Four owner could tell me:

Do you experience any latency when you use the B2 Four's Pitch Shift to transpose up or down a semitone? (Latency is a perceptible delay between when you pluck/pick a note, and when you hear the note.)

I currently use a Zoom B1 Four for tone colouring purposes, occasionally relying on the Pitch Shift function when my vocalist requires me to play a song a semi-tone higher or lower, in a 'difficult' key (eg. C#M or Abm). But I'm noticing an off-putting lag of around a (guessing) a fifth of a second.

I'm hoping that, with advances in processor speed, the B2 Four might have reduced latency/lag to an imperceptible level...? If so I'll invest in a B2 Four.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience with me.

Note: There's another thread in which someone gets heckled for 4 pages for asking whether pitch shift pedals exist. He was variously advised to "get good", "learn to play with shapes shapes" and/or "stop playing bass". It seemed uncharacteristically harsh. I do agree with the general recommendation that learning to transpose on the fly (especially using shapes) is of course the best way for a competent bassist to pitch shift. However, for those few complicated 'unpatterny' songs, or songs I first learned on the piano in a particular key, and/or then learned on the bass using open strings, I would find a pitch shifter more convenient - if one exists without appreciable lag.

Anyway, thanks again in advance for sharing your experience of the B2 Four with this.

I just shot a 4 minute rough video and I'm uploading to YT now. Sharing my thoughts here while it does that. I only used the Bass Polyphonic Pitch Shifter (or whatever it's called). That allowed me to dial out the dry signal and use only the shifted signal. The other pedals seemed to not offer the wet/dry adjustment, so it always sounded like double-stops.

Latency? Minimal. It is there, but after playing for a second, it didn't bother me. There is a little chorusing/warbling as well for me, but mainly on the E-string. Notes sounded fine on the A-string.

Sound coloring, definitely. I did do a quick A/B on bass vs bass with effect engaged and it was definitely woolier when engaged. It almost sounded overdriven to me, but keep in mind, I only had the effect engaged with no other effects to color. After recording, I tried putting an amp sim (Trace Elliot) on and it was still a little grungy. I think with some further exploration, it's possible something could sound fairly good.

I probably wouldn't record with the sound, but if I had it dialed up for a song live, and I couldn't physically or logistically play it otherwise, I'd consider using the effect.

We've been doing Steely Dan's Reelin In The Years, and it just works how it's written. It is *just at the top of my singer's range, though, so we will likely lower it by a 1/2 step. Which I was not looking forward to doing without a de-tuned bass. But now, with this option, I will try it when we do it again (no pun intended) in the future.

Thanks for bringing it to my/our attention!

Here's the video!

 

[Appogee]

That's awesomely helpful, thanks Lildrgn!

My impressions mirror yours: the tone sounds a little more overdriven - but it's not a "bad" tone; I quite like it. Listening to you playing in the broader context of the song, and watching your fingers, I feel like there's a little bit of lag vs where you're plucking the note... I'd say roughly equivalent to what I've noticed when I use my B1 Four.

Thanks again for demoing the pitch shift. Noone in my area stocks a B2 Four, so your demo is literally the best way for me to be able to consider its pitch-shifting capabilities.

 

[phatbass30]

I use the mono pitch shifter. Half down. Because my other singer in the band requires half step down. It’s not bad at all. There’s some discoloration and very light latency. But usable. Better than my GT1B.

 

[topper]

All the shifters have a wet/dry control.

 

[lildrgn]

Digging deeper and sort of figuring out the differences. Here's another video if you have 7 minutes!



If not, here's some words.

There are 4 pitch shifters that I see that aren't just octavers. Here is how they are described in the B2Four App:

• Pitchshift: This effect shifts the pitch up or down.
• Bass Mono Pitch Shifter: This pitch shifter was designed specifically for playing notes in the bass frequency range.
• Harmony Pitch Shifter: This intelligent pitch shifter outputs the effect sound with the pitch shifted according to scale and key settings.
• Bass Polyphonic Pitch Shifter: This pitch shifter for bass supports chord playing.

I used the BPPS last night as I wanted to have full control over wet/dry, as it has separate wet and dry controls. However, in playing around this morning, both Pitchshift and BMPS offer "Balance" controls, which, when at 100, fully dial out the dry signal.

It seems the main difference between the Pitchshift and BPMS is the tone/sound. BPPS allows for more finetuning when it comes to the two notes, but to me, they are 3 variations on the same theme.

Hope that helps!

 

[stubbsonic]

Just to piggy back on the lil dragon;

The BPPS sounds the best, but has more latency.

The BPMS has a little less latency, and still sounds ok.

The one called Pitch Shifter isn't usable, IMHO.

As to whether this latency will be problematic, I can only say that I am pretty sensitive to latency, and it DOES bother me. But if I was using it, I'd probably be able to adapt as long as I was listening to my sound in the mix (as opposed to trusting the sensations in my fingers, e.g.).

 

[Appogee]

Thanks again guys, this is immensely helpful.
You might also like to know that your videos and advice solved one of my other questions, around how to get a very synthetic, organ-like sound, such as you'd hear from an Electroharmonix HOG/POG pedal.
So thank you all again for taking the time to clue me in.
@lildrgn, you also gave a useful demonstration on why a Pitch Shift is sometimes just better than trying to transpose a part into a different key. I too play with a vocalist who sometimes needs to shift up or down a semi-tone to reach the melody.

 

[lildrgn]

Thanks again guys, this is immensely helpful.
You might also like to know that your videos and advice solved one of my other questions, around how to get a very synthetic, organ-like sound, such as you'd hear from an Electroharmonix HOG/POG pedal.
So thank you all again for taking the time to clue me in.
@lildrgn, you also gave a useful demonstration on why a Pitch Shift is sometimes just better than trying to transpose a part into a different key. I too play with a vocalist who sometimes needs to shift up or down a semi-tone to reach the melody.

And as mentioned, thanks to you for even bringing it up. Now I know I can still play Reelin' the way I can play it and also get it in a key that works for us!

 

[stubbsonic]

Here's a nice new demo. There are even sections at the beginning that demo only the amps with no effects, and at the end that demo just the six DI's with nothing else in the chain. The bass player is no slouch, either.

 

[stubbsonic]

Someone on the comments wrote: "Typical Zoom box: Jack of all trades, master of none."

This inspired me to consider a more accurate slogan: Jack of Many Trades, Master of Some. Not a real attention grabber, but reflects the progress that has been made over the years with Zoom effects.

 

[Thom Fioriglio]

Here's a nice new demo. There are even sections at the beginning that demo only the amps with no effects, and at the end that demo just the six DI's with nothing else in the chain. The bass player is no slouch, either.

Thanks for the link to this. And this just convinced me more that I don't need to upgrade from my Zoom B1 Four. I use my Zoom B1 Four for home recording and prefer to use the presets. So, based on my use, I have two complaints. One, is the name of the presets. Why name them after songs? So many songs that I just don't know, and I would suspect, many users will not know all those songs. They should be named and organized after their effect or sound. Much easier to recognize and more descriptive. Second, is too many presets and options. Yeah, we love options and choices, but this has way too many that it becomes overwhelming. 40 presets on the B1 Four works for me.

 

[Appogee]

40 presets on the B1 Four works for me.

My main consideration in upgrading from the B1 Four to the B2 Four is that I want/need the 300 patches available from the B2 vs the 60 available on the B1.

(I'm deterred though by the idea of moving from 'battery operation' to 'needs a power outlet'.)

 

[stubbsonic]

And this just convinced me more that I don't need to upgrade from my Zoom B1 Four. I use my Zoom B1 Four for home recording and prefer to use the presets.

It's cool that you've got a rig that meets your needs and hits the sweet spot for complexity.

So, based on my use, I have two complaints. One, is the name of the presets. Why name them after songs? So many songs that I just don't know, and I would suspect, many users will not know all those songs.

It is quicker and shorter to say (the bass sound from) "Sledgehammer" than it is to say "Synthy w -8v chorus flange" (or whatever). And because these tones often have pretty esoteric things going on like specific compressors, preamps, etc. The year thing is interesting, and probably helpful for some users.

They should be named and organized after their effect or sound. Much easier to recognize and more descriptive. Second, is too many presets and options. Yeah, we love options and choices, but this has way too many that it becomes overwhelming. 40 presets on the B1 Four works for me.

What if they had populated 50 presets and left 200 of them blank? I think it would be a fairly simple matter for someone to create a library of presets that is A. named and sorted with a different logic, and B. leaving more blanks so as not to overwhelm.

 

[lildrgn]

Hello mates. Rather than start a new thread that would die a slow, embarrassing death, let me update this one with my thoughts and questions.

I was (and still am) excited to have the B24 and now, with about 5 months of use under my belt in rehearsals and at shows, I can say I'm comfortable with it, but not necessarily *competent* with it. As I use it with my cover band exclusively, my comments will be based on that. Here are some positive notes off the top of my head:

• Since the B24 and power supply are quite small, all I need to bring to shows anymore are my bass/es, an instrument cable, IEMs and transmitter/receiver, picks, and the aforementioned B24/power supply. I could get it all to fit in my gig bag, but that makes for a snug bag, so I do have a Timbuk2 messenger bag for that.
• As far as sounds go, I have a "General SG (band name) use" patch that has a Trace Elliot amp sim, as well as an Overdrive, Chorus, and Synth, which I will toggle on and off depending on the song.
• I have certain patches for certain songs that I have created/edited prior to practice and shows. I often wonder if anyone notices but me. My drummer did comment on a synth bass sound I made for "Jive Talkin'," but only because it was obviously not a traditional bass sound.
• The sounds emitted by the B24 to FOH really do sound good. In the IEMs it's decent enough. I do like a live rig, but I'm starting to really like using IEMs to where I might have to try it in my indie rock trio as well. I don't get caught up in the whining around "I can't feel the bass" when I'm using IEMs. If it sounds good, it sounds good.
• Using the iOS (via iPad) app to control and edit the patches is so much easier than using the B24 interface.

And some less positive notes, in no particular order.

• Speaking of the B24 physical interface, even if you're not in a quick-change moment, it's still a pain to use. You sort of can use your toes to manipulate the 4 arrows, but it's just not super graceful. I have no constructive criticism, though, so my comments are just complaints.
• I've mentioned this before upthread, but the fact that the 4 dials time out so quickly is aggravating. I squat down, choose the effect I'm trying to affect, spin a dial to see the settings of that particular effect, spin the dial again to change the setting, play a note... and then the display goes away. Now I have to remember, "Did I increase mids from 4 to 5? But when I spin the dial to wake it, it shows 5. So was I on 5 in the first place and now need to go to 6?" Again, aggravating.
• No master volume control. Somewhere upthread, one of the B24/effects gurus, like @stubbsonic or @Zoot H Rollo, mentioned getting unity across all the effects. So for my main "General SG Use" patch, no matter what is on or off, the volume is the same across the board. I punched over to another patch last night, for "Maneater," with a less bassy, more midsy tone, and the volume was lower as I had not adjusted on my other patches like I did on the general use one. That said, if say my volume is at 85 on the general use patch, is 85 what I'd have to have "Maneater" at? Does that make sense?
• The display is a bit inadequate for me. It is small, yes, but I understand why. And yes, you can adjust the contrast, so it does help a little with the visibility. I am not a tall dude so my eyes aren't as far away from it as some of y'alls, but I do have bad eyesight and sometimes, I have to either squint or bend over to read *** it says. When I have the patch engaged and 3 "pedals" are showing on the display, I have to remember what they are, because if an individual pedal is not engaged, it is a little grayed out, which makes it hard to read.
• There are more, but this is already too long.

And that's nothing to say about programming and tweaking for sounds. I've barely scratched the surface. I use it in rehearsals and as mentioned, I don't know if anyone but me can tell the tones I am using. For songs like "Maggie May" or Billy Joel's "My Life," I try to use a thinner, more nasally sounding tone. And then for something like "Come and Get Your Love," I use my general sound, with a light OD turned on. I haven't gotten so granular as to creating 30 patches for a 30 song set; ain't no one got time for that.

For those of you with it, have you stuck with it? How are you using it? I was just in the studio this weekend and brought it, but didn't use it, instead choosing to stick with the Big Iron.

Imma gonna mess with it the next few days, see about dialing in sounds and such. Maybe I'll report back.

 

[stubbsonic]

• Speaking of the B24 physical interface, even if you're not in a quick-change moment, it's still a pain to use. You sort of can use your toes to manipulate the 4 arrows, but it's just not super graceful. I have no constructive criticism, though, so my comments are just complaints.

Yea, Zoom may think those arrow buttons are foot-able, but they aren't really. Plus you can't see the display as you use them. If they'd given it a little extra thought & design consideration, they could have made it more workable.

• I've mentioned this before upthread, but the fact that the 4 dials time out so quickly is aggravating. I squat down, choose the effect I'm trying to affect, spin a dial to see the settings of that particular effect, spin the dial again to change the setting, play a note... and then the display goes away. Now I have to remember, "Did I increase mids from 4 to 5? But when I spin the dial to wake it, it shows 5. So was I on 5 in the first place and now need to go to 6?" Again, aggravating.

100% AGREE!!! Have a system setting to adjust display hold time, or button-press to exit!! Ugh!!

• No master volume control.

There is a master volume control, but there's no specific patch volume-- other than what is available in all the blocks. AND you have to exit effect mode to even access the Master Volume (knob 4).

Somewhere upthread, one of the B24/effects gurus, like @stubbsonic or @Zoot H Rollo, mentioned getting unity across all the effects. So for my main "General SG Use" patch, no matter what is on or off, the volume is the same across the board. I punched over to another patch last night, for "Maneater," with a less bassy, more midsy tone, and the volume was lower as I had not adjusted on my other patches like I did on the general use one. That said, if say my volume is at 85 on the general use patch, is 85 what I'd have to have "Maneater" at? Does that make sense?

I was suggesting always comparing volume to the bypassed bass, that way your point of reference is always only one foot click away-- also, you have a fairly safe level reference as you wouldn't expect your dry bass to be either too hot or not hot enough. On my bass there is a level difference depending on the pickup selection so it's not fool-proof.

As for the Master Level, I set mine at 100 (arbitrarily). I did not compare this level to my dry bass into the same destination. But I suppose that doesn't matter much. I wanted a reasonably hot level but with room to boost (to 120) if needed.

• The display is a bit inadequate for me.

Yup. It is the moment to moment reminder that it is a budget Zoom pedal. What's worse is that Zoom COULD have made WAY better use of the display for readability. On one hand, I get why. New users can have more fun with the graphics. OTOH, if I could switch to a more readable display mode in the system settings, that would help a bunch.

For those of you with it, have you stuck with it? How are you using it? I was just in the studio this weekend and brought it, but didn't use it, instead choosing to stick with the Big Iron.

Using it on an informal gig for some simple FX mostly, it's fine. I tend to hang in MEMORY mode and change presets rather than turning individual FX on/off. It's fine for my needs. I have nicer devices for when I need 'em. Just wanted something relatively cheap that I could mess with-- and a shallow learning curve.

 

[Appogee]

I've been on the fence about upgrading from my Zoom B1 Four to the B2 Four.

The three issues holding me back are:

1. The lack of a patch volume. Sure, I could tweak individual patch components to get the volumes about the same. But what a hassle that would be for a set's worth of patches.

2. Moving from battery to mains power. It's just a ton more convenient to use batteries for small gigs where I need to get on and get off without holding everyone up. I could work around by getting a battery pack, I suppose.

3. UI issues. The screen timeout in particular would be highly aggravating.

The main attraction of upgrading to the B2 Four would be the increased number of patches available, presumeably a bit better quality of effects, and a better interface.