Noisy Ultra Jazz, suggestions?

[Kerem Koseoglu]

Hey folks, I have an Ultra Jazz V with stock electronics. The noise problem is really irritating me lately, so I'm open to suggestions before I make a change.

This bass has noiseless pickups and conductive shielding paint (both stock), which are supposed to make it silent. But it is not. Here are some key findings:

• The noise disappears when I turn the neck to a specific angle - which strongly indicates that the cause is electro-magnetic interference.
• The noise is there in passive mode as well, only not as loud as active (naturally).
• The noise is there even when I remove the batteries.
• The noise happens everywhere, but worse in some venues. Probably due to a higher EMI rate or something.
• My all stock American Pro II Precision is dead silent in same circumstances.

When I bring those factors together, I can think of those possibilities:

• The stock conductive shielding paint doesn't do a very good job, and copper shielding must be applied.
• The preamp acts like an antenna and picks up EMI even in passive mode.
• Those pickups aren't that noiseless

What do you think? Any similar experiences, suggestions, insights, etc?

 

[2112]

Reasonable thoughts, the lot. First thing I'd try is a different instrument cable, a different signal chain, and then a different amp to rule them out

Jazzes always have more potential to be noisy than Precisions due to the single-coil pups. And even the so-called "noiseless" pups aren't always noise-free... they're just "less noisy". I experience this with my Ultras and Elites regularly.

EMI can bear a bear to solve, and sometimes you just can't resolve it 100%... If it were me, I'd start by verifying all your bass's grounds are solid, including thos that go to your conductive paint. Then, I'd consider that not all conductive paint is created equal and I'd hit all the routs and cavities with either a second coat of reputable conductive paint or a nice layer of copper foil tape with conductive adhesive. You should also try to find a way to shield your wire holes between the pup routs and control cavity. Then, I'd make sure that my pickguard has a conductive strip of tape on the backside around the pup hole and makes contact with the rout cavity shielding. Same goes for your control plate, although it is already likely to be made from a conductive material.

if those steps don't help, it could be that you have a problem with your pups and/or control joint. You might try swapping in another set of electronics to see what happens. Good luck, let us know how it goes!

 

[Kerem Koseoglu]

Any further suggestions?

 

[sunbeast]

What are the pickups? Most hum-cancelling Jazz pickups are "split-coil" pickups due to the limited space in the J design for side-by-side coils (and that most players seem to agree that split-coil pickups sound closer to single-coils than other types of humbuckers). This design works well on a 4-string (or even 6-string) pickup because you can have two equal-sized coils that each cover half the strings (like a Precision bass) which can create a perfect humbucker pair. With a 5-string bass though, a split-coil must be made that has one coil covering 3 of the strings and the other coil only 2 of the strings (since having a split directly under the middle string would cause dropouts in volume and different tone). Different pickup manufacturers have come up with different ways to deal with this- the most common way is just to use two imbalanced coils (larger coil for 3 strings, smaller coil for 2) which will only partially cancel hum (much better than single coils, but still somewhat noisy). Some more sophisticated 5-string split-coil use equal power coils in different clever ways to keep the best hum-cancelling properties and also try to keep the tone even across the strings (Nordstrands mostly do this I believe for example)

 

[Geri O]

When I had an American Elite Jazz Five, I had the same problems. Same symptoms, it was picking up some noise from some LED footlights that were a few feet from me. Facing a certain direction would reduce the hum. However, the hum was slight and never to the point of making it unusable. Still…
I finally did a full copper-foil shielding job on that bass. Control cavity, pickup compartments, under the pickguard, all the little wire pathways, and even the little wire tunnel going from the control cavity (made a little copper tunnel shield by wrapping some foil around a pencil and was able to work it into the tunnel). I also tack-soldering the foil edges together in spots so that it all connected.

Some of this was probably overkill, but the bass was now very quiet with next to no hum. I was able to even replace the N4 Noiseless pups with single-coil Nords that were more to my liking. Still very quiet except the harshest conditions that one would not tolerate as they played.
Kinda silly to have to perform this procedure on such an otherwise really nice bass, but it did help a great deal and I had the knowledge and experience to make the improvements without too much trouble. I would have used a shielding paint of some, but the drying process would have taken a day or more and I had only one evening to get it done and complete.

 

[Kerem Koseoglu]

What are the pickups?

It has stock Fender Ultra Jazz pickups.

 

[Kerem Koseoglu]

When I had an American Elite Jazz Five, I had the same problems. Same symptoms, it was picking up some noise from some LED footlights that were a few feet from me. Facing a certain direction would reduce the hum. However, the hum was slight and never to the point of making it unusable. Still…
I finally did a full copper-foil shielding job on that bass. Control cavity, pickup compartments, under the pickguard, all the little wire pathways, and even the little wire tunnel going from the control cavity (made a little copper tunnel shield by wrapping some foil around a pencil and was able to work it into the tunnel). I also tack-soldering the foil edges together in spots so that it all connected.

Some of this was probably overkill, but the bass was now very quiet with next to no hum. I was able to even replace the N4 Noiseless pups with single-coil Nords that were more to my liking. Still very quiet except the harshest conditions that one would not tolerate as they played.
Kinda silly to have to perform this procedure on such an otherwise really nice bass, but it did help a great deal and I had the knowledge and experience to make the improvements without too much trouble. I would have used a shielding paint of some, but the drying process would have taken a day or more and I had only one evening to get it done and complete.

Thanks for sharing your experience so extensively. Fender Ultra Jazz allegedly has conductive paint to prevent noise, but so did Elite Jazz (according to online sources). I didn't think that copper-foil would work better than paint. But since it helped you like you described, I don't see why it wouldn't help me either.

That's also a relief because I don't really want to ditch the pickups or the active preamp. After my gig tonight, I'll let my luthier shield my Ultra properly. Let's see how things go.

Cheers!

 

[Geri O]

Thanks for sharing your experience so extensively. Fender Ultra Jazz allegedly has conductive paint to prevent noise, but so did Elite Jazz (according to online sources). I didn't think that copper-foil would work better than paint. But since it helped you like you described, I don't see why it wouldn't help me either.

That's also a relief because I don't really want to ditch the pickups or the active preamp. After my gig tonight, I'll let my luthier shield my Ultra properly. Let's see how things go.

Cheers!

Please note, I’m not asserting that the copper foil is more effective than the shielding paint. The paint is very much effective as my Mike Lull Jazz-style bass was shielded with the shielding paint and it’s so very quiet, even with the pups used individually, which I seldom ever do, but it’s impressive, nonetheless….
The reason I went with the copper foil was a matter of expediency. I ordered the foil, it arrived 3 days later, and I shielded the Elite late that evening. Took around 2 hours, I think. But I just needed to get it done quickly but effectively, and the foil was the way to go.

Your guitar guy will probably have a preference of foil vs paint, but as long as it’s applied correctly, both methods will give you great results.

EDIT: a friend bought a second-hand Elite very similar to the one I had, but it arrived with some preamp issues. Guitar Centers only response was to return the bass. My buddy said screw that and asked if I could help. Then the pandemic set in and he and his wife, being nurses, sank into the abyss of dealing with all that. His ailing bass was kinda forgotten about.

Last December, he let me know that he wanted to move forward with getting it up to speed. So I suggested an Audere preamp and he got I’ve in. I installed the Audere, did the same sheilding procedure on his bass, and once it was all put back together, I was reminded of just how good those American Elite Jazz basses were/are. Sounded and played great. A bit heavy, but I’m used to 8lbs Lulls these days.

I have yet to play an Ultra, but I’d be quite surprised if it wasn’t very similar to the Elites.

 

[Kerem Koseoglu]

Please note, I’m not asserting that the copper foil is more effective than the shielding paint. The paint is very much effective as my Mike Lull Jazz-style bass was shielded with the shielding paint and it’s so very quiet, even with the pups used individually, which I seldom ever do, but it’s impressive, nonetheless….
The reason I went with the copper foil was a matter of expediency. I ordered the foil, it arrived 3 days later, and I shielded the Elite late that evening. Took around 2 hours, I think. But I just needed to get it done quickly but effectively, and the foil was the way to go.

Your guitar guy will probably have a preference of foil vs paint, but as long as it’s applied correctly, both methods will give you great results.

EDIT: a friend bought a second-hand Elite very similar to the one I had, but it arrived with some preamp issues. Guitar Centers only response was to return the bass. My buddy said screw that and asked if I could help. Then the pandemic set in and he and his wife, being nurses, sank into the abyss of dealing with all that. His ailing bass was kinda forgotten about.

Last December, he let me know that he wanted to move forward with getting it up to speed. So I suggested an Audere preamp and he got I’ve in. I installed the Audere, did the same sheilding procedure on his bass, and once it was all put back together, I was reminded of just how good those American Elite Jazz basses were/are. Sounded and played great. A bit heavy, but I’m used to 8lbs Lulls these days.

I have yet to play an Ultra, but I’d be quite surprised if it wasn’t very similar to the Elites.

Well; if the foil worked for you, it ought to work for me as well. A logical resort before changing the pickups or ditching the preamp altogether; at least I love the sound and feel of this bass otherwise - just like you like the Elite.

In my current state, I'm band-aiding the problem with a noise gate. Without the gate, I'm getting raised eyebrows from the sound guys or band members. Especially in some venues notorious for noise; but I'm getting a certain degree of noise everywhere. If foil doesn't help, I might go forward with more extreme measures. If it comes to that and I decide to change the preamp (instead of ditching it), I'll keep Audere in mind.

My P is dead silent in same circumstances. Oh well...

 

[sunbeast]

It has stock Fender Ultra Jazz pickups.

I believe Fender usually designs their 5-string split-coils with imbalanced coils (one long, one short), so that may indeed be the issue you are experiencing. To get full humcancelling the two coils need to have equal amount of wire.

 

[Killing Floor]

Leo didn’t know about shielding in 1949 or so. Therefore it is currently not on the product roadmap for Fender. Start with copper shielding.

Also check your dimmers. Most legacy rheostatic dimmers aren’t really compatible with LED light lamps, even the ones that say they are dimmable. This often results in EM noise.

 

[Geri O]

Well; if the foil worked for you, it ought to work for me as well. A logical resort before changing the pickups or ditching the preamp altogether; at least I love the sound and feel of this bass otherwise - just like you like the Elite.

In my current state, I'm band-aiding the problem with a noise gate. Without the gate, I'm getting raised eyebrows from the sound guys or band members. Especially in some venues notorious for noise; but I'm getting a certain degree of noise everywhere. If foil doesn't help, I might go forward with more extreme measures. If it comes to that and I decide to change the preamp (instead of ditching it), I'll keep Audere in mind.

My P is dead silent in same circumstances. Oh well...

If the foil doesn’t help, changing the preamp probably won’t help, either. I’d be really surprised if the foil didn’t solve of the noise issue.
The change in preamps was due to the faulty preamp that arrived with the bass. I trouble-shot the problem to the preamp (both pups tested good. So my buddy ordered another OEM Elite preamp from a reseller on eBay (red flag) and that preamp arrived with the same problem! We even rechecked the pups, but again, both of them checked out.
That’s when he asked for my suggestion and I suggested the Audere. My go-to Preamp is the John East J Retro preamp, but at $259, neither of us could see the real need for a preamp that expensive for his needs. The Audere at a little over $100, I think, does make his bass sound really good.

 

[sunbeast]

What are the pickups? Most hum-cancelling Jazz pickups are "split-coil" pickups due to the limited space in the J design for side-by-side coils (and that most players seem to agree that split-coil pickups sound closer to single-coils than other types of humbuckers). This design works well on a 4-string (or even 6-string) pickup because you can have two equal-sized coils that each cover half the strings (like a Precision bass) which can create a perfect humbucker pair. With a 5-string bass though, a split-coil must be made that has one coil covering 3 of the strings and the other coil only 2 of the strings (since having a split directly under the middle string would cause dropouts in volume and different tone). Different pickup manufacturers have come up with different ways to deal with this- the most common way is just to use two imbalanced coils (larger coil for 3 strings, smaller coil for 2) which will only partially cancel hum (much better than single coils, but still somewhat noisy). Some more sophisticated 5-string split-coil use equal power coils in different clever ways to keep the best hum-cancelling properties and also try to keep the tone even across the strings (Nordstrands mostly do this I believe for example)

Just to update to my suggestion, I looked up the Fender Jazz Ultra V pickups and they appear to be "stacked coil" humbuckers as opposed to split-coils so disregard my comments as a stacked coil should be fully humcancelling in this application!

To chime in on the shielding question- copper shielding is generally going to be much more effective than a typical shielding paint job for noise-rejection. Shielding paint is just graphite/carbon suspended in paint and is used because it is a quick and easy to apply, but its effectiveness is dependent on the specific paint used and ideally on applying multiple coats. Even several coats won't be as effective as a well-done copper foil shielding though as copper foil is far more conductive than graphite.

 

[Geri O]

Just to update to my suggestion, I looked up the Fender Jazz Ultra V pickups and they appear to be "stacked coil" humbuckers as opposed to split-coils so disregard my comments as a stacked coil should be fully humcancelling in this application!

To chime in on the shielding question- copper shielding is generally going to be much more effective than a typical shielding paint job for noise-rejection. Shielding paint is just graphite/carbon suspended in paint and is used because it is a quick and easy to apply, but its effectiveness is dependent on the specific paint used and ideally on applying multiple coats. Even several coats won't be as effective as a well-done copper foil shielding though as copper foil is far more conductive than graphite.

No side-by-side comparison experience, but I’ll put either of my Lulls up against any bass for noise comparisons.
What they do is probably more involved than simply a shielding paint application, but it ain’t foil.

 

[Kerem Koseoglu]

I'm not proud of necromancing my own thread; but I have eventually taken the time to let my luthier completely shield the cavities of my Jazz Bass. Unfortunately, the noise problem didn't really go away.

I plug in my Precision Bass into the same rig, dead silent. So is my Sadowsky M5.

I plug in my Jazz Bass into the same rig, noisy. Even in passive mode, the noise is present, only not as loud. The noise gets worse when I approach EMI sources. Some bass component seems to be picking EMI signals, that's clear.

Are there any other suggestions?

Otherwise; following the former suggestions above, I will either suck it up, or make a risky investment and change the electronics, or simply sell it and get a humbucker bass or something. Since my Jazz is merely a backup / tour bass at this time, I don't want to do anything costly which might degrade its resell value, so...

 

[ClusterFlux]

Electro Harmonix Hum Debugger.

It's designed specifically to get rid of the 60hz cycle hum.

 

[Mariusdm]

I just got a Fender Jazz Ultra 5 and I'm having the same issue. It feels even noisier than what I remember my MIM Fender Jazz used to be (I sold it some time ago). My Precision Pro II is dead silent in the same room.
I'm confused about the "noiseless" claims...

 

[Kerem Koseoglu]

I just got a Fender Jazz Ultra 5 and I'm having the same issue.

Sorry to hear about the issue with your brand new bass; I know it sucks. Currently, my Ultra is resting in its case because of the noise. I've acquired another (humbucker) bass that is completely silent, filling its spot. I'm considering selling the Ultra in the near future.

 

[jellymax]

I ordered a set of American ultra jazz pickups from fender and installed them in my 4 string squier vm jazz.
The neck pickup is great, no noise.
The bridge pickup noisy. I went back and redid the grounds and noticed some improvement. I plan on having it checked by the local fender authorized
Shop and see what they say. I love the tone though.

 

[iiipopes]

There are two kinds of noise: 60-hertz hum and electrostatic noise. Most "noiseless" pickups only filter 60-hertz hum. Electrostatic noise is completely different and that is why some basses and pickups are shielded. Even then, if you are in a heavy electrostatic noise environment, such as neon lights, computer screens, etc. You will get noise, and one of the few solutions is to turn the bass to try to cancel the noise.