Noob question about neck stability on cheap bass guitar

[grumphh]

Hi all - i am a guitar player (~35 years of playing) and i have just bought a bass guitar. Don't ask me why, i just felt the need for one...

A cheap one, namely a Washburn T-14 (mic), but i am surprised at how well it actually performs for a bass that definitely is a "low end" bass.

It's got one problem that i can identify - which is that the relief on the bass side of the neck is slightly deeper (more concave) than on the treble side - but it holds its tuning and sounds nice to my ears and the action is reasonable, but will not go very low. I still need to file the nut down a bit though...

I got it used from a guy who had bought a starter pack and gave up really fast, and just wanted to move the bass and the rest of the kit, and apparently it hadn't been touched for a while - so the first thing i did to it was obviously setting it up (no different to a guitar so i know how to do it ).
During the setup i noticed one thing, namely that the neck straightened out (there's a bit of relief in the neck of course and the truss rod works) when the strings were slackened - and here comes the question i really would like to know more about:

Is it normal for bass necks to lose their relief without string tension or is this a sign of a cheap bass?

(I mean, my guitar necks hardly change with the strings off - but this bass neck went completely straight when the tension was taken off it...)

Idk, bass necks are obviously a lot longer than most guitar necks, so it stands to reason that they are more flexible, but still, i was surprised...

Thx in advance for answers - and also, after two days of trying to play the bass with my right hand fingers (rather than the plectrum i use for guitars) i have suddenly found a lot more respect for bass players.
Playing the bass right is basically like starting all over again :O

 

[Jazz Ad]

Bass strings pull a lot onto the neck more than guitar strings and as you mentioned, the neck is longer.
When you take off the strings, most basses will go flat or even get some back relief.
More relief on the bass side isn't a bad thing since lower strings tend to have more amplitude than D and G.

 

[grumphh]

Fast answer :O

Merci beaucoup

 

[Bruce Johnson]

To clarify the terminology, what you are really asking about is the neck's stiffness, not its stability. They are two different things, not necessarily linked together. More on stability below.

Stiffness is how much the neck bends when you apply the load of the strings to it. A very stiff neck barely changes shape at all between full string tension and no string tension. A soft or flexible neck is what you've noticed on this neck. It's set up correctly under string tension, but when you loosen the strings it springs back to flat or into backbow. Bring it back up to tune, and it bends and goes back to the correct setup. That's a soft neck.

Some basses are built with very stiff necks and some are intentionally built with soft necks. And everything in between. And stiffness isn't a measure of cost or value. Some really cheap basses have very stiff necks, and some very expensive basses have soft necks. It depends what the builder/manufacturer is trying to do with the design. And even with one make and model of bass, there will be some variance from one bass to the next, depending on the density and hardness of the individual boards used to make the necks.

As some general examples, Alembics, Smiths, and Steinbergers have very stiff necks. Gibsons and Rickenbackers usually have fairly soft necks. Fenders are in the middle, but some are stiffer or softer than others. Lower priced imports are all over the range, very stiff to very soft.

Guitars also have stiff necks and soft necks, but there's not as wide a difference between them. Guitar necks are shorter in length, and the load from the strings is a lot less.

So, what does the neck's stiffness mean to the player? It makes a subtle difference in the sound, in the clarity and the attack curve of lower end notes. A stiffer neck will make the bottom end notes clearer and less muddy, and have a flatter attack curve. A soft neck will put more shape into the attack curve, adding more of a pulse on the beginning of the note, and add some background coloration, but at the expense of some clarity and sustain.

Why does this happen? The softer the neck is, the more it flexes as the string cycles, which draws energy from the string and changes how it's ringing. The stiffer the neck is, the less it flexes and the more you are hearing the pure sound of the string.

But remember, there are other factors in a bass too, which can override the effects of a stiff or soft neck. For example, a bass with a very stiff neck can end up with a muddy bottom end if it has a mushy bridge installation, or a mushy sounding pickup. And a bass with a soft neck can have good clarity if the body is built stiff. A Rickenbacker, for example. We builders work from different directions to get the results we want.

The point is, the stiffness of the neck plays a part in the in the overall sound of the bass, but it isn't the sole determining factor.

The neck's stability is something different, and not necessarily tied to the stiffness. There are two types: short term stability and long term stability.

Short term stability is how much the neck moves or bends as the temperature and humidity change. It's usually corrected with small adjustments to the truss rod. And the neck will usually return to its original position when the weather returns. Short term stability problems can happen on either stiff necks or on soft necks.

Long term stability is warpage. The neck bends or twists over time because, well, the wood just feels like it. And it doesn't go back. It's caused by internal stresses in the boards, insufficient drying, and improper alignment of grain and growth rings. It can also happen on either stiff necks or soft necks.

 

[grumphh]

Long and very informative post!

Thank you for a very informative post indeed!

As for stability vs. stiffness, yup i got those two confused - my sorry excuse is that in the guitar world stiffness in necks simply is not the same issue as it evidently is in basses.
(It may be of course, but despite the many different guitar necks that have passed through my hands they all have had pretty much the same stiffness - at least as far as what you can experience without measurements - as i described, they hardly react to whether the strings are on or off...)

But man, i just learned a lot about necks

 

[Bruce Johnson]

In the guitar world, the most noticeable difference in the stiffness of necks is in the choice of the neck wood. For example, standard straight-grain hard maple vs curly (flame) maple. Curly maple is quite a bit softer than straight maple. If all else is equal, a curly maple neck will be softer and will give the guitar more attack curve pulse and background coloration, at the expense of some clarity and bottom end. A mahogany neck will be softer yet.

But again, remember that other factors can cancel that out. A mahogany neck with carbon fiber bars and a thick ebony fingerboard can be super stiff. A straight maple neck which is cut thin and has a weak truss rod can be soft. You can't just say that a particular wood neck will always sound a particular way. You have to consider how it's built and the overall stiffness.

When you are testing out an instrument, it's always interesting to detune the strings partway and watch what happens to the action. That will give you a quick reading on how stiff the neck is. With some experience, you can tell just by listening to it played unplugged.

 

[grumphh]

When you are testing out an instrument, it's always interesting to detune the strings partway and watch what happens to the action. That will give you a quick reading on how stiff the neck is.

I am not arguing your points at all - i too assume that quite a lot of what makes up a stringed instruments tone comes from the neck - but the reason i made this thread is exactly because i have not experienced this "neck straightening" phenomenon on my guitars (strung with pretty standard 010's), no matter the type of wood nor its thickness

So i was just worried that i might have bought a bass that was to cheap, even for a total beginner like myself

Now, i'll enjoy it even more, knowing that this aspect of it is not a mark of bad quality as such, and for that info i am grateful

 

[Deleted member 96522]

To clarify the terminology, what you are really asking about is the neck's stiffness, not its stability. They are two different things, not necessarily linked together. More on stability below.

Stiffness is how much the neck bends when you apply the load of the strings to it. A very stiff neck barely changes shape at all between full string tension and no string tension. A soft or flexible neck is what you've noticed on this neck. It's set up correctly under string tension, but when you loosen the strings it springs back to flat or into backbow. Bring it back up to tune, and it bends and goes back to the correct setup. That's a soft neck.

Some basses are built with very stiff necks and some are intentionally built with soft necks. And everything in between. And stiffness isn't a measure of cost or value. Some really cheap basses have very stiff necks, and some very expensive basses have soft necks. It depends what the builder/manufacturer is trying to do with the design. And even with one make and model of bass, there will be some variance from one bass to the next, depending on the density and hardness of the individual boards used to make the necks.

As some general examples, Alembics, Smiths, and Steinbergers have very stiff necks. Gibsons and Rickenbackers usually have fairly soft necks. Fenders are in the middle, but some are stiffer or softer than others. Lower priced imports are all over the range, very stiff to very soft.

Guitars also have stiff necks and soft necks, but there's not as wide a difference between them. Guitar necks are shorter in length, and the load from the strings is a lot less.

So, what does the neck's stiffness mean to the player? It makes a subtle difference in the sound, in the clarity and the attack curve of lower end notes. A stiffer neck will make the bottom end notes clearer and less muddy, and have a flatter attack curve. A soft neck will put more shape into the attack curve, adding more of a pulse on the beginning of the note, and add some background coloration, but at the expense of some clarity and sustain.

Why does this happen? The softer the neck is, the more it flexes as the string cycles, which draws energy from the string and changes how it's ringing. The stiffer the neck is, the less it flexes and the more you are hearing the pure sound of the string.

But remember, there are other factors in a bass too, which can override the effects of a stiff or soft neck. For example, a bass with a very stiff neck can end up with a muddy bottom end if it has a mushy bridge installation, or a mushy sounding pickup. And a bass with a soft neck can have good clarity if the body is built stiff. A Rickenbacker, for example. We builders work from different directions to get the results we want.

The point is, the stiffness of the neck plays a part in the in the overall sound of the bass, but it isn't the sole determining factor.

The neck's stability is something different, and not necessarily tied to the stiffness. There are two types: short term stability and long term stability.

Short term stability is how much the neck moves or bends as the temperature and humidity change. It's usually corrected with small adjustments to the truss rod. And the neck will usually return to its original position when the weather returns. Short term stability problems can happen on either stiff necks or on soft necks.

Long term stability is warpage. The neck bends or twists over time because, well, the wood just feels like it. And it doesn't go back. It's caused by internal stresses in the boards, insufficient drying, and improper alignment of grain and growth rings. It can also happen on either stiff necks or soft necks.

Thanks for posting this. Its very informative, and something I've wondered about for quite some time.