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Open E- & A-string buzzing at nut/zero fret (Sandberg, after string change)

J

Joce

Jul 20, 2005
238
194
Europe
#1
Hello TB,

I hope you can help me with my problem:
On my new (old design) Sandberg TM4 the open E & A strings are buzzing at the nut/zero fret.
I changed the strings from the stock strings (supposedly Sandberg's own stainless steel strings in 40-60-80-100) to DR Hi-Beams 40-60-80-100.

Since then, the E- & A-strings are buzzing at the nut/zero fret unamplified. Also there is a distinct "clack" noise, when I dig in on the A-string, mostly on the first pluck.
I have uploaded an album to the media gallery:http://www.talkbass.com/media/albums/sandberg-string-buzz-nut-zero-fret.616/

My observations:
  • The buzz is audible, when playing the open strings unamplified. Playing amplified, you can still here the "clack" noise, albeit not through the amp.
  • There is no buzz, when I fret a note. If I press on the strings behind the nut or on the nut, the buzz is still there. If I press on the zero fret, the strings don't ring out, duh.
  • I think, I am lacking sustain on the open E-string. A,D,G strings have nice sustain, E string sounds less full, the tone doesn't really "build up" or "bloom". I checked this on my Yamaha P-Bass copy (Dr sunbeams 45-105), and it was similar. So it might be normal. I adjusted the pickup height and volume of the strings is even. Except the E-string doesn't sound as full, open. Talking amplified here.
  • The zero fret has grooves in it, which seems to be normal for Sandbergs (based on internet research).
  • The zero fret grooves of E & A string are cut much less smoothly than on the D & G strings, there are clearly burrs visible.
  • The E- & A-strings are not touching the nut, i.e. there is no contact between the bottom of the string and the top of the nut slots. Possibly also on the D & G string, it's hard to see. Unfortunately, I can't really take pictures of that.
  • The nut slots on all strings are cut so low, they are level with the end of the fingerboard.
  • The E & A string can be moved in the nut slot by pushing on the string sideways (parallel to the frets, if you like)
  • The angle over the nut of all strings is the same, determined by the string retainer on A, D, and G strings
  • I measured the old stock strings after taking them off at three positions along their length - ball end side, middle, and top side (still full wound). The mean measured gauges are:
    • E: 2.58333... mm = .1017 inches
    • A: 2,0333... mm = .0801 inches
    • D: 1,5666... mm = .0617 inches
    • G: 1,05 mm = .0413 inches, so they seem to be indeed 40-60-80-100 strings.
Things I have not done yet:
  • Adjust the truss rod. Playability & relief don't feel any different to the stock strings & is to my liking.
  • Adjust the intonation. Intonation is fine for my ears and resonably good, when checking with a tuner (Polytune 2 Blacklight, 12th fret harmonic to fretted not at 12th fret)
  • Talk to Sandberg & or the dealer I ordered it from. Busy at work, couldn't make it yet during they're business hours.
My questions to you:
  • Is this nut/zero fret condition normal for Sandbergs?
  • Can the, allegedly, lower tension of the DR Hi Beams cause these issues? Are they thinner than other 40-60-80-100 strings?
  • What do you think might cause the buzzing?
I can take more pics, if necessary. Thank you very much!
 
#7
Pics are in this album: http://www.talkbass.com/media/users/joce.59998/?type=album. I have embedded the album, too.
  • Right after adjusting the truss rod (1/16th to 1/8th turn Counter Clockwise) there was no difference. So, I'm letting the neck settle and will check back later.
  • I set the witness points at nut and bridge, or rather at zero fret and bridge. The strings are not touching the nut slots. I will try to get a pic of that, too.
  • I have included pictures of the pegs, too. angle over the nut is the same for all strings. A,D,G string angles are determined by the string retainer.
View media item 5951View media item 5950View media item 5949View media item 5948View media item 5947View media item 5946View media item 5945View media item 5944View media item 5943View media item 5942View media item 5941View media item 5940View media item 5939
 
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#8
I'll take your word on the relief but a measurement at the 8th may help. I would also re-set the witness points on the fingerboard side of the zero fret. The pic may be misleading but I still some "lift" as the string crosses. The wraps look good. Speaking of the zero fret...

That thing is starting to look nasty. Is that actually normal string wear and did someone hack on it with a file in an attempt to create some form of string path(s)? Either way, you need to have that addressed as it may be contributory.

Riis
 
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#9
The grooves in the zero fret are by design of Sandberg. That's what I have gathered from other internet sources.
The bass is new and I certainly didn't take a file to it. As I said and tried to show in the pictures, the grooves of E & A string look badly cut compared to D & G strings.
Check out this picture of a different Sandberg zero fret I found online:
nullbund-jpg.jpg
 
#10
^ Agreed and thanks for the addt'l pic as that is what I would expect to see. Heck, even the D string notch looks questionable on your's. Maybe it has no affect whatsoever but it certainly merits investigation.

Edit: it appears as if the E string is launching from the back (headstock) side of the zero fret as opposed to the leading (fretboard) edge.

Riis
 
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#11
Thanks for all the replies so far!
I did a quick check as I'm pressed for time unfortunately: The truss rod has definitely adjusted, the action is higher now. The buzz at the nut/zero fret on open E & A is still there :bawl:
Will follow up with a more thorough check and action adjustment at the bridge. Also, have the zero fret grooves looked at by the dealer and possibly Sandberg directly.
 
#12
It's been a while, but here's how it played out:
Finally took the bass to the store I got it from and their tech looked it over. He tweaked my setup, to his taste and understanding the neck was bowed quite a bit so he straightened it. Also he checked and adjusted the action, string radius mostly. Got the bass back yesterday and the buzzing problem is gone! Action is now really low, which I've come to like.
Thanks again for your interest and support!
 
#13
Joce said:
It's been a while, but here's how it played out:
Finally took the bass to the store I got it from and their tech looked it over. He tweaked my setup, to his taste and understanding the neck was bowed quite a bit so he straightened it. Also he checked and adjusted the action, string radius mostly. Got the bass back yesterday and the buzzing problem is gone! Action is now really low, which I've come to like.
Thanks again for your interest and support!
Click to expand...

I seem to have the same issue on my Sandberg California tt5.

It’s only on the e string. Buzz/rattle on the open e which will actually go away if I rest my finger on the string above the nut, even with the lightest of contact.

Given how yours was fixed, what would you suggest I do to try to fix mine ?

Thanks,

Nick
 
#15
Zero frets - a solution or a problem?

The idea of a Zero fret is a good one. But it has its common source in cheaply made instruments. If every note you play on an instrument except for open strings relies on the height of the fret relative to the next one up, why not use a zero fret just like the others? Then the open string is the same as a fretted string. And it takes away the need to accurately cut the nut slots to an exact depth. Open notes will sound like fretted ones. What's not to like?

There's one thing that happens at a zero fret that doesn't happen to any other fret on the instrument. When you tune up, the string, which is quite abreasive, is dragged across the zero fret, and under tension as well. That's hard on the fret and tends to groove it rather quickly. And when it gets grooved the relationship to the first fret is impacted negatively.

Some makers that use zero frets put a slightly larger fret in the zero position to afford a bit more clearance. Some will put in a larger fret then groove it to optimize the height of the string. But the wear caused by tuning will eventually create a problem at the zero fret. There is no easy solution for that. When there is significant wear at the zero fret you have two options - reduce the height of the other frets to accommodate the lowered zero, or replace the zero fret. TO avoid the problem it might be worthwhile using a harder fret in the zero position so that wear occurs more slowly, but then open strings may not sound the same as fretted ones because of the difference in material.

Such is the state of compromise that affect so many aspect of instrument building. In the OP's case, I suspect that the grooves in the zero fret are excessive and there is probably no reasonable alternative to replacing of the zero fret.
 
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#16
Grooving the zero fret always brings up the question, "Where is the zero?" Is it at Top Dead Center of the fret tang/slot, or is the fret laid out for the scale to break at the edge of the fret? If it's at TDC, as soon as the fret is filed the intonation is off. Since the fret is oval, if it's at the front edge, it's even with the fingerboard and so the fret has to be filed to nothing. If it's somewhere else, how do you find it?

As Turnaround so adroitly points out, when the fret wears from the abrasive action of tuning, the zero must change. When that happens, intonation of the instrument will be a problem no matter what system for setting intonation is used.
 
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#17
FWIW, I don't mind a zero fret. One of my finest instruments has one. I prefer a conventional nut, but I'm OK with a zero fret.

But then it's no problem for me to replace a worn fret.

Or two.

Or all.
 
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