Double Bass Open jams..now and then..

[AndyMopley]

Reading a book on jazz, where a few pages are dedicated to how competitive the jazz scene was in the days of Miles & Co. - indeed the man himself fueled this competition., willingly or otherwise. A lot of the bars were infact battle grounds (Charlie Parker's episode a glaring example) where cutting contexts were the order of the day, and could end a musician's career or aspirations. Granted this was a time when musicians had to make a living, so competition was a natural by-product.

However, these days, most jam sessions I've attended (or played in) tend to be generally a much more sedate / friendly environment, without the pressure. I guess the more people come and return, the better for the busines and the organisers.

So my question is - have we now diluted this competition where the kind of exchange that was seen at the jam sesssion of the time is no longer visible? That is musicians constantly one-upping each other's harmonic complexity and rhythmic ideas? Is competition amongst musicians still a thing, anyway, in jazz circles, and much less hostile that is used to be?

Over to you guys for the usual constructive comments, if you like.


Regards to all

 

[Stuart.C]

I also find this topic interesting, for what it implies about how attitudes towards music have changed.

Famous stories of head to head improve duels go back to Mozart and Beethoven, I think jazz just carried on that tradition

While contests do still exist in institutions, rap battles and implicitly in the minds of players, the informal head to head duels do seem to be a thing of the past.

Imagine Edgar Meyer showing up at a Christian McBride show and challenging him to see who the better bass player is.

the fact that this just seems wrong now shows that attitudes have changed.

The cause of the change, for better or worse is a whole lot of conjecture

 

[lurk]

Jams these days are often more like "open mics" than they were when I was coming up. I don't know if this is good or bad. More welcoming, less intimidating, less learning, and less intense listening to better players.

 

[JazznFunk]

More welcoming, less intimidating, less learning, and less intense listening to better players.

So my question is - have we now diluted this competition where the kind of exchange that was seen at the jam sesssion of the time is no longer visible? That is musicians constantly one-upping each other's harmonic complexity and rhythmic ideas? Is competition amongst musicians still a thing, anyway, in jazz circles, and much less hostile that is used to be?

Some of that early on was definitely about gatekeeping and putting food on the table, period. We have to view that as a product of the time and not necessarily as an integral part of being a jazz musician or of playing jazz (or music). If a player is an a-hole on the bandstand, it's usually because they are an a-hole off the bandstand. That has nothing to do with the music, but it becomes ingrained with the music's story as a matter of history (just like drug use being seen as a 'requirement' to be 'on the scene') - but it doesn't necessarily always reflect a universal reality. Unfortunately, politics still exist in the jazz scene, no matter where you are. People still try to cut you, people still try to snake your gigs.... meanwhile we're all still making $100 or less per musician for a club date.

I disagree with this collective notion that heated competition is a requirement at a jazz jam, mostly from personal experience. Learning and intense listening doesn't require people shouting at you or running you off the bandstand, nor does it require hostile competition. But it DOES require you to be able to take constructive criticism - and a show of respect to those who are indeed better than you.

When I started out, the scene where I am was always welcoming, and every jam session was friendly AND focused on learning and listening to everyone intensely. I remember getting criticized and humbled regularly but never in a threatening or ego-driven way, even when it was delivered sharply on the bandstand... and this was from players who were light years beyond me at the time.... even some of the people I studied with in school. Jam sessions led to sessions in people's homes and then gigging together. That led to studying privately with the same people who criticized me on the bandstand a few nights before. The drive to get better always has to come from within.

One of the best musicians around here, and best bass players period that I've ever heard in terms of creativity and facility, is someone I befriended early on after I moved here. We play completely differently, and he can play circles around me, but we used to get together and play bass duets and 'jam' even though I had no business playing with him yet. There were other bassists around here who immediately tried to 'compete' with him when they moved to town and copped an attitude, and he never gave them the time of day. We talked about that one time, and he told me that he respected me even early on because it was obvious I was interested in making music and just getting better and finding my own thing, versus seeing other people (and him specifically) as the 'competition.' That's allowed our musical friendship and professional relationship to endure, and it's why we still play together and feed each other gigs when we can.

The only competition that matters is the one you engage with internally to force yourself to learn and get better. I think a less 'hostile' jazz scene in general is a good thing, because lord knows the music doesn't need anymore gatekeeping than it's already received over the past 30-40 years.

 

[TroyK]

I wasn't there, so pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that there were welcoming/nurturing sessions back in the day as well. When you read a legend's biography, you're going to read about cutting sessions, because that's where they were in the scene. There are no biographies on beginners and mid-tier local players, because...why would there be?

 

[markjazzbassist]

music is an art form, not a sport. competition is for sports, collaboration is for art.

 

[JazznFunk]

I wasn't there, so pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that there were welcoming/nurturing sessions back in the day as well. When you read a legend's biography, you're going to read about cutting sessions, because that's where they were in the scene. There are no biographies on beginners and mid-tier local players, because...why would there be?

Also, some 'first hand accounts' are notoriously inaccurate.... Miles was incredibly inconsistent in his storytelling.

 

[pbassnut]

Reading a book on jazz, where a few pages are dedicated to how competitive the jazz scene was in the days of Miles & Co. - indeed the man himself fueled this competition., willingly or otherwise. A lot of the bars were infact battle grounds (Charlie Parker's episode a glaring example) where cutting contexts were the order of the day, and could end a musician's career or aspirations. Granted this was a time when musicians had to make a living, so competition was a natural by-product.

However, these days, most jam sessions I've attended (or played in) tend to be generally a much more sedate / friendly environment, without the pressure. I guess the more people come and return, the better for the busines and the organisers.

So my question is - have we now diluted this competition where the kind of exchange that was seen at the jam sesssion of the time is no longer visible? That is musicians constantly one-upping each other's harmonic complexity and rhythmic ideas? Is competition amongst musicians still a thing, anyway, in jazz circles, and much less hostile that is used to be?

Over to you guys for the usual constructive comments, if you like.


Regards to all

I currently play in the house band for a weekly blues jam and have done so quite a bit over the years. I find the participants to be supportive of each other 99 44/100% of the time. I don't really understand the allure of the "cutting contest". Chops means little to nothing. Overall musicality, groove, and songwriting means everything, IMHO. I don't play jazz but am a big fan of it ... primarily the hard bop of the 50's & 60's. Whereas I certainly like chops monsters like Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, and Sonny Rollins - there are many other artists that I like even more due to their stellar ensemble playing.

 

[Bruce Calin]

As a young player at jams early in my career my experience was generally positive and supportive. On an actual paying gig it could be different. In that situation the expectation was that you would play the proper thing at the proper time("No, man! Don't play that!"). It was a different and maybe more valuable aspect of the learning experience for the long run.

 

[yodedude2]

this sort of talk always reminds me of the movie "Crossroads".

Love JazznFunk's post on the matter (#4 above) ~

 

[Steven Ayres]

I imagine that the cutting contest evolved from the regular dance-band gig. Musicians had to work pretty long hours to keep it together in the '20s and '30s, and there wasn't much formal rehearsal time. After-hours jams were where many learned new tunes and techniques from other players, and auditions amounted to showing up, begging for space, sitting in and making your bones if you had what it took for that gig. It probably became more competitive in the '30s as the bands dwindled in size. Some leaders were probably more into this than others were, as a way to keep band members motivated to measure up. We know a lot more today about how toxic that can be.

Now the jam has been reduced to live-band karaoke for people who aren't getting gigs, where the band getting paid has no stake in the quality of the music. I've worked this sort of jam many times, and if I never do again it'll be too soon. I think it's important to support students on their musical journeys, but what I see is lots of ego and little else.

 

[logdrum]

NYC, Philly and Chicago has always been tough for anything the arts in particular. It was then and it continues today. You probably just haven't heard it. Maybe no colorful personalities like Miles and Monk. The good news is that hard bop is not the only game in town. You will find many forms of improvisational music and people from so many places and it is always enriching. Being rejected at least for me was good bitter medicine. In the end the competition is within you. That static inertia vs the move towards an idealized state.

Now the jam has been reduced to live-band karaoke for people who aren't getting gigs, where the band getting paid has no stake in the quality of the music. I've worked this sort of jam many times, and if I never do again it'll be too soon. I think it's important to support students on their musical journeys, but what I see is lots of ego and little else.

Yep and it has been clique oriented as well, you have to know someone. That's the format here. A core band gets paid and so called open mics and a lot of the music played is too safe IMO.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Reading a book on jazz, where a few pages are dedicated to how competitive the jazz scene was in the days of Miles & Co. - indeed the man himself fueled this competition., willingly or otherwise. A lot of the bars were infact battle grounds (Charlie Parker's episode a glaring example) where cutting contexts were the order of the day, and could end a musician's career or aspirations. Granted this was a time when musicians had to make a living, so competition was a natural by-product.

However, these days, most jam sessions I've attended (or played in) tend to be generally a much more sedate / friendly environment, without the pressure. I guess the more people come and return, the better for the busines and the organisers.

So my question is - have we now diluted this competition where the kind of exchange that was seen at the jam sesssion of the time is no longer visible? That is musicians constantly one-upping each other's harmonic complexity and rhythmic ideas? Is competition amongst musicians still a thing, anyway, in jazz circles, and much less hostile that is used to be?

Over to you guys for the usual constructive comments, if you like.


Regards to all

When I came up there was a big difference between a cutting session and an open jam session; the first was, effectively, by invitation, while the second was open to just about anyone who wandered in.

I viewed it as a privilege to be invited to participate in a session hosted by seasoned veterans, especially as a bassist.

But, the cost of admission was very high; you had to check your ego at the door and willingly accept, and grow from, criticism. If you didn't cut it, you were lucky to be told; much better than to never be invited back.

The guys I learned from, like my Pop, were older cats, many of whom had played with Miles, Dizzy, and Bird. When they came up, cutting sessions were usually after the paid gig, and could be much more brutal. Cats with more attitude than skill were told to get off of the stage very quickly.

When people today talk about jam sessions, the vast majority are referring to something entirely different from the cutting sessions of old.

IME, it would be huge mistake to conflate today's open jams with the cutting sessions of old.

 

[matthewbrown]

NYC, Philly and Chicago has always been tough for anything the arts in particular. It was then and it continues today. You probably just haven't heard it. Maybe no colorful personalities like Miles and Monk. The good news is that hard bop is not the only game in town. You will find many forms of improvisational music and people from so many places and it is always enriching. Being rejected at least for me was good bitter medicine. In the end the competition is within you. That static inertia vs the move towards an idealized state.



Yep and it has been clique oriented as well, you have to know someone. That's the format here. A core band gets paid and so called open mics and a lot of the music played is too safe IMO.

I've found the public jams here much as you describe them where you are. Not that it's a bad scene, but I find I enjoy the jams where the public isn't invited more interesting, especially because of the song choices. As a bassist, at public jams I might was well be on someone else's gig -- no input on what's played -- so I end up playing lots of very old standards, mainly backing up singers. I find it rather dull, but the social scene isn't bad. I've picked up some gigs from showing up. At the private jams we might play Shorter, Corea, Swallow, etc, as opposed to Porter, Kern, et al.

 

[fdeck]

I admit that I never attended a public jam session until I was in my 50s and hired to play in the house band. And I've never experienced a big city jazz scene. When I was growing up, there were no jazz jams or performances in my area. I learned jazz by playing in the school jazz band, and playing along to records and the radio. My brother and I got Real Books, and we worked our way through them, trying each tune. This activity expanded to include a few other kids in high school and college. These were jam sessions in a sense, but not public ones. I still know all of that repertoire.

There are different ways to learn jazz now, and perhaps as a consequence, jam sessions have taken on a different purpose. People can learn jazz in school, or from home study, and recordings are easy to find. I wonder if this is true in other genres as well. When I attend fiddle jams, it strikes me that players have a lot more repertoire than could be explained by learning tunes at the small handful of jams that are held.

In my locale, people find their way into the scene by making themselves available, and taking low profile gigs. As I've told my kids, "every gig is an audition." Other players will quickly assess whether you can play or not. Maybe I got a bit of a break because a bassist can function in a band without being a great soloist, and I was also able to make use of my reading skills and repertoire of standards. I played quite a few gigs before I was comfortable soloing in front of an audience.

 

[edwinhurwitz]

Granted this was a time when musicians had to make a living

When have musicians not had to make a living?

 

[scrubhelmet]

I think it's important to support students on their musical journeys, but what I see is lots of ego and little else.

I'm surprised to read this because most of the students I know have a lot of self-doubts. Some of them would be rendered speechless when they receive compliments.

 

[evanrunyon]

Having played in the house band for a busy NYC jam session for a few months when I first moved there I can confirm robust, brutal competition still exists (or at least existed in 2013), with obnoxious NYU undergrads playing the part of Bird et al. Time will tell if any of those kids become legends—and if they do I’m sure we’ll get heavily romanticized remembrances of those sessions in their memoirs.

 

[Steven Ayres]

I can confirm robust, brutal competition still exists (or at least existed in 2013), with obnoxious NYU undergrads playing the part of Bird et al.

I've seen the same dynamic among ASU undergrads in Tucson, and I have to wonder: what are they competing to win? Do any actual jobs proceed from this anymore?

 

[evanrunyon]

I've seen the same dynamic among ASU undergrads in Tucson, and I have to wonder: what are they competing to win? Do any actual jobs proceed from this anymore?

Ah, thinking back to going to the jams at the Old Pueblo Grill and French Quarter (I'm certain neither restaurant even exists anymore) when I was in high school brings up so many foundational musical memories.