PA Help

[FunkBear]

Hey guys, my cover band (5 piece rock) has been playing places with a house PA for a little while now, but it's time to branch out. We are in need of a PA system but are all clueless as to what exactly we need. We plan on playing bars/clubs and such, and eventually maybe shows that are outside. Can anyone make some recommendations for PAs? I'd like to know the following:

-what do we need? I figure monitors, speakers, a sub or two, and a mixer/amp?

-how much power should the amp have?

-how much can I expect to be spending?

If anyone can help out please let me know, my band and I thank you in advance.

 

[4Mal]

How loud do you need to be ? How large are the specs you need to fill ?

You'll need mics as well probably... Get the best mic you can. Bang for the buck I'm a big Audix fan. Very consistent mic to mic and at the price point the blow some other popular brand away...

If your budget will swing it you should absolutely go digital for your board. Presonus 16.4.2 is mazing. Mackie DL is less capable but still an option. If you already have an older 30 pin ipad, the dL series boards are a great option...

Advantage to digital is you do not have to buy any external stuff like compressors, EQ's, effects, gates - it's all built in... Cheaper to buy, easier to move...

In my small rig I use a mic of JBL powered PRX 612's and also QSC K-Series and K-Subs. If I were to pick one, the QSC stuff wins. It is very easy to setup and live with. Sounds fantastic as well. At the level I'm talking about (as opposed the Behringer, Alto, B52, Harbringer, etc) the DSP in powered speakers is a real plus. They sound amazing right out of the box. The lower end stuff, not so much...

PA is a slippery slope. It will cost a bunch to do it the way you want to be heard. Spending less means that your shows suffer for lack of sound quality. So here is my plug for us small sound company operators...

I can come in and make you sound amazing.... In this market, at about half the band's take for the night. Sounds like a lot, but I'm putting 10 to 15 K in gear up for you. Before we even get to mixing, I'm handling the setup, tear down, mics, cables, electrical power distribution, multiple (up to 5) monitor mixes.

As add ons I can hang 16 par 56 LED wash lights. I also offer 16 track live recording and soon 3 camera angles of video. Extra fees for the add-ons of course but it's you show up with your backline, tune, approve the monitor mixes and away we go... It is a ton of work which for 2 guys doing a club date is maybe $100 a night, about $20 an hour in other words...

You on the other hand are going to get maybe $30 for playing. But you can drive your Prius and don't have to make that monthly date with the chiropractor... Or incur the cost of that 10 to 15 grand in gear... My company is doing these gig's to keep the gear working. Power bread and butter is the small 1 or 2 stage festival weekend. There are probably sound companies like mine in your area. Seek them out and see what you can find.

My sense of it is that other markets around the country will differ in terms of absolute dollars and that my market is not at the higher end of the scale. I would expect the pay levels in those markets to also be a higher so it should be a wash...

 

[squarewave]

What is your total budget?

 

[FunkBear]

Hi guys thanks for the responses so far. Here are some extra details:

Budget is 2-3k. Is that too low? I don't think we need 10-15k for what we are doing.

We need to be able to sonically fill a typical bar.

We are interested in digital, if the price fits our budget.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Hi guys thanks for the responses so far. Here are some extra details:

Budget is 2-3k. Is that too low? I don't think we need 10-15k for what we are doing.

We need to be able to sonically fill a typical bar.

We are interested in digital, if the price fits our budget.

Be prepared to go analog and used and you can do wonders. Resign yourself to the fact that, along some avenues, you may have to settle for older technology. Digital mixers and powered speakers are very attractive but will quickly run the tab well above your budget. A component break-down (by genre) would be particularly helpful in getting a handle on the money end of things. I'll start:

*Mixer / 16 channels

Have at it, guys!

Riis

 

[FunkBear]

Be prepared to go analog and used and you can do wonders. Resign yourself to the fact that, along some avenues, you may have to settle for older technology. Digital mixers and powered speakers are very attractive but will quickly run the tab well above your budget. A component break-down (by genre) would be particularly helpful in getting a handle on the money end of things. I'll start:

*Mixer / 16 channels

Have at it, guys!

Riis

Older technology will do just fine, and used is not a problem either. In addition to a mixer I take it I will need an amp to power all the speakers as well?

 

[Wasnex]

Budget is 2-3k. Is that too low? I don't think we need 10-15k for what we are doing.

Depends on the quality you expect, how much of the band you plan to mic, and what your future goals are. If we are talking new, this budget will get you an entry level system that will push vocals only. If everyone has a decent amp you can easily do small bars with this type of setup and sound respectably good. I am talking powered mixer, four speakers, four crappy mics, cables, stands etc. Many people would be happy with this type of system....In my opinion you start out with yuck and there is little you can do to improve or expand it! You can however, do far worse by spending even less.

Here's what I would buy. These are fairly common Ebay prices: used Yamaha O1V 96 ($1000 each), used 1 QSX PLX 3002 ($500 each), three new Audix OM5s with crappy stands and cables ($477 for the kit), four used EV SX300 ($5-600 per pair...two for mains, two for monitors). Ooops already spent $3000 and haven't bought speaker stands, speaker and power cables, racks, direct boxes, etc. However, this system will blow the system above out of the water both quality and volume wise and can be upgraded with extra power amps, subs, crossovers, etc. down the road. I would probably plan to spend $4,000 total. This should buy the necessary cables, stands, and a second power amp so I could run stereo mains and two monitor mixes

The O1V has built in parametric EQ on all inputs and outputs, compression on each channel, and decent effects (reverb, delay, chorus, etc.), but only has 12 mic inputs, 2 stereo inputs. Here's what you can do with that 1. bass drum, 2. snare, 3. over head left, 4. overhead right, 5. guitar, 6. bass, 7. keys left, 8. keys right, vocals 9, 10, 11, 12. If you need two more mic channels, you run the keys into stereo inputs 13 and 14. Ipod goes into 15 and 16. If you need more channels we're talking a lot more money.

For future upgrades the O1V has stereo outputs, and 4 aux outs. You can use the auxes to run up to four separate monitor mixes. You can also use the auxes to run sub mixes, front fills, delay stacks etc.

The O1V has the ability to delay all inputs and outputs independently. I usually delay stereo mains to the backline, and if I am running center fills and center packed subs, I normally delay them an additional 4 feet or so, so they sync up with the mains. IMHO using delay in this manner can really tighten up a mix.

It takes a lot of money, knowledge, and talent to do sound right.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Older technology will do just fine, and used is not a problem either. In addition to a mixer I take it I will need an amp to power all the speakers as well?

Where are you located and do you have an active Craigslist? You'll find bargains galore as gear can be heavy and expensive to ship. Sellers are motivated to sell locally. Here's a somewhat expanded list of essentials...IMO:

*Mixer, preferably one with decent onboard FX.
*Mains, either two or three-way with 12's or 15's...passive.
*Subs, one or two. Arguable but you'll need them eventually.
*Monitors, 3-4 will suffice. I use cast-off mains enclosures.
*Power amps (3): mains, subs, monitors. Don't be afraid to "over-buy"...watts is cheap as are used lead sleds.
*Couple of wheeled rack boxes would be nice for mounting amps, mixer, etc.
*Couple of inexpensive GEQ's and crossover if using subs.
*Each band member should be responsible for his own mic, stand, and 50' cable.
*A 16/4 snake is not essential although the resulting runs can be messy. You can do wonders with Velcro and gaffer's tape.
*Throw an addt'l 15-20% onboard for peripherals including speaker cables.

Now, sit down with a pencil, scratchpad, and calculator while perusing the classifieds. Even when dealing with used gear, costs add up quickly. I'd be interested to see what you come up with after an initial "scan" of TB, CraigsList, and E-bay.

Riis

 

[4Mal]

*Having been there done that... I'll go back to my origina statement that PA is a slippery slope... 2-3 k is enough to get your feet wet but no more.

That said while you Guys are pumping the analog, etc ... The Makcie DL1608 is at $800 all over the web at the moment. So for that and the cost of a used iPad 1, 2 or 3 you're in digital land an you aren't deal with a cobbled together bunch of used outboard gear, racks to house it and interconnect cables.

Used set of Mackie 450's can be had for say 1k - they will make additional monitors when you can afford better sounding tops. They are loud as heck... Or you could spend up to a set of the EV Live X 112's in the 1400 range last I looked.

The try for a set of used wedges and a power amp for $500. Generics like CGM can get you started. Just be sure that the horns have actual replaceable drivers and diaphragms. Don't bother with anything that uses the nasty 1 piece piezo crap...

Buy some cables and stands and there goes your 3 k. You're probably also buying mics, cases, bags, stands, etc so even that 3 k might be a stretch. At least doing that way you won't be scrapping (selling on CL or TB for a loss) everything you bought used off CL...

Anyone who buys an analog board in the 16 channel range and the attendant outboard gear and the racks and cases is simply not doing their homework IMO. Keep calm and carry on...

The road map for a system like the one above is replace the tops with better sounding ones later at a cost of 2000 (after bags, etc). You now have 4 monitors as your old SM450's will serve there... Or they may be in fill, side stage distribution if you're out in a wide, park setting. Add a good single powered sub like the QSc KW 181 at $1400.

So your initial 3k became 6.5k over time - but you didn't lose your initial investment ...

Other thing I would recommend. If you can swing it, be the sole owner of as much of this as you can. Preferrably the whole shootin' match. Personnel has a way of migrating and when critical pieces go you can be back in the hunt. Might be good timing or maybe not so much...

If you find yourself enjoying the tech side, you might find as I did that keeping your system working by 'doing sound' for other bands, even on a low key basis can be fun and can generate revenue that will either pay off or grow your system. The cautionary note is that some folks are not going to enjoy the 'doing sound' experience...it is a hell of a lot more fun from out front than it is on stage.

* My first system (after coming off the road in the early 80's and doing career) was a CL/TB/GC used cobbled together setup. It sounded pretty good but was maintenance prone. Generation 1 JBL EON 15's.. Stay strictly away... As I disposed of it I maybe recovered half of what I put in... I learned a lot along the way. I donated some of it to local high school music programs and charity auctions. Cost of education ? Maybe. A definite expense though. Unlike the vintage guitar (scam) market... Used PA stuff depreciates pretty rapidly...

 

[Zooberwerx]

As 4Mal pointed out, I would have a lot of difficulty dropping ~$600 on a used A&H MixWiz when I could pick up a state-of-the-art Mackie for $800 (I saw several "out of box" offerings on E-bay). As a result, I'd be hard-pressed to drop any major bucks on used older technology should you chose to go that route. On the plus side, use this market dynamic to your advantage if truly restricted by budget constraints. This becomes a real challenge when dealing with CL sellers who insist their used QSC RMX 1450 is worth $300. Insert other examples as you see fit.

Riis

 

[Wasnex]

That said while you Guys are pumping the analog, etc ...

I am a convert to digital. Around 2006, I put together a nice compact club rig with a Crest XR20 which (IMHO) is one of the better rack mount analog boards. Outboard gear consisted of two KT DN 410 stereo EQs, one KT four channel compressor, one KT four channel noise gate, and two Yamaha digital effects processors. All of this was built into a single rack. Roll it in, take of the lids and connect the snake trunk and power and you were ready to go. This set up cost about $10K if I remember.

I was really proud of this rig, but then I had the opportunity to mix on a series 1 Yamaha O1V. I was simply amazed at how much better the mix sounded and how much more processing capabilities I had.

 

[wmhill]

The Peavey PV line of stuff is pretty good stuff for what you pay for it. Light years ahead of behringer stuff( to my ears). I used a PV14 mixer for years and swapped up to the PV20 usb (well over 100 gigs without issue). Very usable effects, clear sound and very reliable and in a very user friendly format. also I have the PV215 fronts, which I like as well. The IPR series power amps are real decent too. I've used the PV 18s and thought they were fine for the price. No this isn't as sweet as the better JBL,QSC etc. systems but it's good quality stuff at the price point that you are looking at. Hope my 2 cents helps!

 

[Zephrant]

Mackie DL1608: $750
Mackie SRM550 powered mains: $450 each
Mackie SRM1850 sub: $750

$2400 so far, and you have 3200 peak watts of mains with digital modeling and anti feedback, and 2000 watts of sub.

Forget the stage monitors, ask each person to go IEM, and use the six outputs from the 1608 to give everyone their own mix.

You will need an ipad, mics, cables, stands, etc. Watch craigslist and you may end up with that stuff at less than half price.

At least that is my plan.

(Mackie prices are from my local ship that cares them, so factory-new, not used. )

 

[JohnMCA72]

Plan for growth & flexibility. I'd avoid any mixer/power amp combo just for that reason. I'm a big fan of using powered speakers for the same reason, plus t team of people with engineering and/or science degrees & a whole lot more experience designing loudspeakers than you or I has done a big part of the engineering work. Not to mention, you can string them together from here 'til doomsday without having to worry about impedance matching between speakers & amps. You also don't have to worry about "power", either. If a (powered) speaker sounds good, & is capable of delivering the level of sound you need at the distance you need (i.e. x dBSPL @ y feet/meters (*)), then you really don't need to care whether it can do it at 1 watt or 1000 watts.

(*) If you don't know how loud your "program" needs to be, at what distance, it's impossible to design a proper sound system & you're depending on luck (or over-building) to get it right. Don't despair, though - you're a member of a pretty large club!

 

[JohnMCA72]

I'll also add: Expect to spend as much money on mics, cables, & stands as you do on a mixer, amp(s) or speakers.

Make sure that you have enough vehicle space to transport everything.