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Passive vs active???

#41
mixmastermike said:
I'm playing an 01 mim jazz passive and I feel I get a pretty nice tone out of it but I have an instructor that keeps trying to talk me into "upgrading" to an active bass. I'm pretty ignorant to all this electronics stuff as far as basses go ( I'm an electrician at my real job) so guess I'm just looking for some discussion on this. Is there a pedal that can essentially do the same thing as an inboard preamp? Lie I said I don't know much about this aspect of playing bass.
Thanks in advance

P.s. I know that the right thing to do is go play some basses but the closest musical store is a couple hundred miles away
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I would politely tell that teacher to stick to the music. Adding an on-board preamp is a 'change', NOT an upgrade.

And yes, for the most part, a 'preamp in a box' like the Sadowsky, etc. will have a very similar effect as that same circuit installed 'on-board'.
 
#42
JimmyM said:
I don't know how it measures on a scope, but I can set an SVT to sound quite flat to my ears when I need it.

Then again, we had this conversation before, and you didn't believe me then, and you probably still don't ;)
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OK, from the January 2010 Bass Gear magazine, which had a feature story on the history of the SVT, they did a lab test on a 1974 SVT in the column Tom Lee's Amp Lab.

They put the amp on a scope, and tried to find a setting where the response was flat. It was not possible to do. They got something they called "optimally flat", which looked like this:

1974_SVT_tonestack.png


(the big hump is the controls set flat. The scoop is trying to make it flat)

You can clearly see that either "all controls at noon" or the setting they have made, would not get rid of the humps.

The reason is that Bill Hughes designed the tone stack that way on purpose (emphasis added):

"I had previously developed a style of equalization for bass while working as a freelance recording engineer. Cranking up a lot of low end boost was never a good idea when your target is vinyl. Rather, removing the lower odd-order harmonics (as the SVT was set up to do) does way more to give the right illusion. I guess this is why bass amps with graphic EQ have fallen from vogue."

So, the SVT removes the low end, and substitutes a big hump between 100 and 200Hz. When you click the Ultra Lo switch on, it does not boost the lows, but notches out the mids. His idea was that would be less boomy in large spaces, like an arena.

The lab report said this:

"The "all controls at noon" curve has a deviation os just over +/- 4dB, with a pronounced hump between 100Hz and 200Hz and a treble roll off in the upper frequencies.

The optimally flat curve I came up with looks far from flat. In the "all controls at noon" curve, the ultra hi was set to 0, ultra lo was set to 0, and the mid control was set to 200Hz. As this is where the hump was, I began pulling back on the mids. In doing so, the band interaction caused by pulling out the mids resulted in the optimally flat curve. As can be seen in Fig. E, the treble was goosed just a hair from its default noon position. Someone may be able to coax a flatter response out of this amp, but I tried several times running though several variations of controls, and the illustrated approach was the one that I could repeat."

This is fine if you like the tone of that amp, and clearly many people do. That hump makes it boxy sounding to my ears.

But my point was that the EMG preamps are more accurate.
 

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#43
One man's opinion. And if you read the text, he also said others could probably get it flatter. I certainly could. I heard his settings and mine is flatter. I've compared it against an LMII, which IS a flat response amp with all controls at noon, so I know it can be done. Just because Tom Lees couldn't get it flatter doesn't mean nobody else can. Get off the 200hz mid sweep and go to the 800.
 
#45
JimmyM said:
One man's opinion. And if you read the text, he also said others could probably get it flatter. I certainly could. I heard his settings and mine is flatter. I've compared it against an LMII, which IS a flat response amp with all controls at noon, so I know it can be done. Just because Tom Lees couldn't get it flatter doesn't mean nobody else can. Get off the 200hz mid sweep and go to the 800.
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Once you plug into a bass backline cab on a gig, 'flat' becomes just another arbitrary EQ setting, and IMO has very little meaning when amplifing 'non programmed' material.

Some of the most 'unflat':D heads out there become quite evenly voiced when matched with their corresponding 'non flat' cabs.:smug:
 
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#46
JimmyM said:
One man's opinion. And if you read the text, he also said others could probably get it flatter. I certainly could. I heard his settings and mine is flatter. I've compared it against an LMII, which IS a flat response amp with all controls at noon, so I know it can be done. Just because Tom Lees couldn't get it flatter doesn't mean nobody else can. Get off the 200hz mid sweep and go to the 800.
Click to expand...

But the built in hump is at 200Hz, which is why he tried to pull it down with that. Switch it to 800Hz, and now you have a hump or valley there. And flat, should with the controls set flat. The fact that it isn't shows that there is a built in EQ curve.

Flat's not all that interesting really. I just dislike the low end roll off and built in 200Hz hump. I prefer my bass to sound like it's plugged into a recording console. Other people like the amp's tone. That's good too. :D

I will say I like the SVT model in my Johnson J-Station. I use that all the time for recording.

And this sucker sounded pretty nice. The studio owner insisted I use it. We mixed that mic's with a direct signal run through a Demeter tube preamp. I liked the Demeter better, but the SVT sounded pretty good too. Similar to the sound clips you posted.

svts.jpg
 
#47
KJung said:
Once you plug into a bass backline cab on a gig, 'flat' becomes just another arbitrary EQ setting, and IMO has very little meaning when amplifing 'non programmed' material.

Some of the most 'unflat':D heads out there become quite evenly voiced when matched with their corresponding 'non flat' cabs.:smug:
Click to expand...
I did use the same cab to match tones ;)

David, if you mean "flat" as "not being over the 0db line", then maybe it's not true flat (of course it's never TRUE true flat), but the whole idea of using 800 is to bring the high mids up to the level of the low mids.
 
#48
JimmyM said:
I did use the same cab to match tones ;)

David, if you mean "flat" as "not being over the 0db line", then maybe it's not true flat (of course it's never TRUE true flat), but the whole idea of using 800 is to bring the high mids up to the level of the low mids.
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The dB line? Flat means there is little deviation from low frequencies to high. Like a flat line. No amp will have that, but some will be more accurate than others. So what we are really talking about is that what ever the response of the signal going in is, it will come out the same. If the SVT is putting in a hump, it's not flat. It has now altered the signal. That's fine, but usually you wait until you change the EQ for that. So it has a baked in tonal response, and gives that amp it's signature tone.

By accurate I mean that the signal going in is the same as the signal going out, when the tone controls are set for no boost or cut (flat). An EMG preamp will do very well that with. An SVT, or any other numbers of tube and even SS amps will not.

So, your comment was that the EQ section of an SVT was of high quality. In audio, quality would be it's ability to pass the signal unscathed with the control are flat. I commented that the EMG preamp is more accurate.
 
#50
JimmyM said:
1. This ain't pro audio.
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Sure it is. And the inexpensive EMG preamp manages to do it fine. The SVT was not designed to reproduce the bass faithfully. Most bass amps don't, which is why bass is mostly recorded direct.

I would also think the Markbass is not doing it, since the input impedance is only 200k.

2. I made it happen. Whether you choose to believe that or not is on you, but I know what I heard.
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You believe you made it happen. You have no way of knowing that however without putting it on a scope. ;)
 
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#51
One of the biggest things I noticed after I took the pre out of my Ray34 was that it seemed like where I played along the strings had a much greater effect on the tone. With the preamp in it seemed like it sounded about the same if I played right over the pickup or by the neck.
 
#53
You absolutely do not need an on board pre, if you're just knocking around the garage, or in a large enough scale operation so as to have sound checks and a sound guy. But if your gigs are on the scale of dropping your amp on a riser somewhere and hitting it, the on board pre becomes essential. The sight of a musician fiddling with amp knobs has long since gone out of fashion.
 
#54
I had a Steinberger which had the active EMGs but I never had a bass with the onboard b/m/t boost-cuts like today. I have played them but they kind of confuse me. My SWR SM400 has a preamp and if the bass has a preamp there is a preamp before the preamp and 18 vs 9 and headroom...I get confused. I like the simplicity of volume and tone though I do think that some active basses that I have played sound great.
 
#55
I think I am more of a passive guy...I play my l2000 passively all the time....also have a passive PJ. But wait, I took my lakland with an active Bart system to a gig last weekend and man it was something else. It just had some extra...dunno ...oomph, that really had the stage bouncing. The band doesnt want me to bring another bass around anymore 0:. For the OP, you don't need an active bass--just get one you like or stick with what you have--cheers guys!
 
#56
I have a Sadowsky with a boost only active preamp.
I also have other active basses with boost AND cut.
I'm starting to believe that boost only is the way
to go. If you have to cut frequencies from your
bass with the onboard pre, then the bass doesn't
sound good to begin with. IMO.
 
#57
mozilla314 said:
If you have to cut frequencies from your
bass with the onboard pre, then the bass doesn't
sound good to begin with. IMO.
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How do you figure?
It doesn't make much sense to me...

Why would you say that boosting is better than cutting?
Either way you are changing the way the bass sounds, so if you boost I guess your bass did not sound the way you want it to start with... ;-)
 
#58
mozilla314 said:
I have a Sadowsky with a boost only active preamp.
I also have other active basses with boost AND cut.
I'm starting to believe that boost only is the way
to go. If you have to cut frequencies from your
bass with the onboard pre, then the bass doesn't
sound good to begin with. IMO.
Click to expand...

I find this to be an odd notion. First off, Sadowsky on-board preamps often are fitted with a vintage tone control, which is cut only.
 
#59
mozilla314 said:
I'm starting to believe that boost only is the way
to go. If you have to cut frequencies from your
bass with the onboard pre, then the bass doesn't
sound good to begin with. IMO.
Click to expand...

mcnach said:
Why would you say that boosting is better than cutting?
Either way you are changing the way the bass sounds, so if you boost I guess your bass did not sound the way you want it to start with... ;-)
Click to expand...

PilbaraBass said:
I find this to be an odd notion. First off, Sadowsky on-board preamps often are fitted with a vintage tone control, which is cut only.
Click to expand...

None of us can make tonal decisions for anyone else. Some are happy with boost only, some with cut only, some need both, some need many band EQs, some need ....

The reason there are so many options for tone circuits and EQ is that we do not and never will agree on these matters. And if your use any tone control or EQ anywhere in the chain then your bass must not have sounded good to begin with, eh? Either that or you just like different sounds for different songs, moods, etc, which is how most of us feel. ;)

Ken
 
#60
My 2 cents on the subject...

I've discovered that passive is the way to go for me and all my basses are strickly passive, 2 of them converted from active. I always use a pedalboard, and always use either a Rusty Box or VT Bass at the end of my signal chain to act as a preamp, which the bass and all pedals cascade in to. Active preamps in basses sometimes don't jive well with different effects, and I like being able to shape my clean tone at the last pedal and barely ever change it.

Having the preamp as the last pedal in your chain (before the amp) means that whether you're doing clean tone or effected tone (fuzz, overdrive, modulation, filter, etc.) its all being fed into the preamp, which does a bit of compressing/equalizing/tone shaping of its own. Basically the preamp gives anything you feed it the flavor of the preamp, so your tone has some consistency no matter what effects you are or arent using.
 

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